Breastfeeding and feminism - is there a stance on this? What did the feminists on MN do?

[hellooo]

Fully expect to be told there is no feminist "stance" on breastfeeding, that the two aren't mutually exclusive etc etc.

But I've often wondered if breastfeeding can stand in the way of truly shared parenting?

ISNT, I could not agree with you more, especially wrt to the shared leave thing.

I like some things about working, which is why, since becoming a SAHM, I've done various short courses and (way too much at times) volunteer work. Of course the sucky thing is you don't get paid, but you are also liberated from some of the sucky things (I personally hated) about paid employment (rigid obligation, inflexibility, financial dependency, etc).

This is a season for me. I have no idea how long it will last, how long I will want it to last, or what I'll do next.

Yes I went a bit beserk this mat leave and took on rather a lot, people have looked at me like this when I tell them what I have been up to. I just struggled with not working and thought for a while whether I should feel guilty about not savouring every moment with the kids etc. But then I realised that many many women feel teh same as me. And I think that needs to be taken into account when we form our ideal society.

ISNT, I share some posters concerns that some men will attempt to use shared leave to pressure women to return to work prematurely, etc.

Of course I also have paranoid ideas like, 'oh no don't encourage men to lactate because they'll get rid of us completely.'

The (sad?) fact is, I don't think many men would choose to (breastfeed or) share the leave. First of all, they generally make more, and 6 months of paternity leave just doesn't look great on a CV (which is also sad but true).

However, to relate this back to breastfeeding, a baby of 6 months is perfectly capable of surviving on solid foods, sips of water, and a little EBM while mama is out working (her flexible dream job). Comfort CAN be provided by someone other than mum, even though the comforting benefits of breastfeeding should not be minimized.

That's Cameron's big society idea though isn't it, that all the unfulfilled mummies at home will do everything that needs doing for free. I think that's the gist of it anyway.

Yes I think from 7 months say it's doable for most babies, having got the hang of solids and a sippy cup by then.

I think we underestimate the number of men who would exercise this option as well. When I look around I see a lot of very hands on fathers - that could just the people I come into contact with though.

Also it takes a few pioneers to start things off - a few men would take it up, then some more, then some more, and it would gradually become more normal.

Also, to reply to your cross post, I actually think it's weird and damaging for children to be the sole focus of an adult's world.

They do not need to be entertained and stimulated all day long.

They need to get bored and invent things.

They need to see that work needs to be done, and is done. Sometimes they need to be told, 'mummy will give you milk in a minute, after I finish hanging up this washing/writing this press release about breastfeeding/posting on MN.'

It's good for them, it really really is.

Yes that's my parenting style as well. I can't be doing with any running around. They have to amuse themselves

Oh don't get me started on Cameron because I have already eaten all the chocolate.

I would bring up my DH's support for the Citizen's Wage which could possibly address the lack of support for volunteers, but I'm too tired.

My DH is v hands on, and definitely would take the leave if my salary weren't so pathetic. BUT I am also quite sure he would use it in part to WAHD while starting up a new business venture. Because his male ego is so tied up with earning, being professionally successful, etc. You ask for his life story, he tells you his CV :)

I should add that recently I started my own small (low status, OMG) WAHM business. It has taken its toll on me emotionally and physically, much more so than the volunteer work. It does give me a higher net income than I would have subtracting childcare from my salary. But, like all the options, fails to really meet everyone's (or anyone's) needs.

Yes, exactly.

I was really upset to hear a news report today about babies dying in Pakistan because aid agencies hadn't delivered formula :(

is the original poster asking a real question?

breasts are for feeding babies. whichever sex has them. if men had a uterus and breasts, then they would be women. simple.

my opinion, and i consider myself a feminist.

bf is nothing to do with feminism in itself, you can make it by considering stetical reasons not to do it or just because your partner doesn't let you

your partner can participate in breast feeding, mine does by getting up at night with me, while i feed he gets me a drink, a snack or breakfast, makes sure i am comfortable, he settles the baby afters so i can go straight to sleep, and he supports me when i had trouble, like cuts, no milk, etc, by encouraging me to continue, make sure i express on regular basis, use the medication to heal damaged breast, and taking an active interest, i couldn't have done it without him, but then he is a feminist too.

This is interesting: feminist economist Julie Smith's Mother's Milk and Markets.

THANK YOU Indelible, that is a great article.

Why should women's groups put their valuable time and resources behind breastfeeding campaigns and programs?

1. Breastfeeding requires changes in society to improve the position and condition of women.

2. Breastfeeding confirms a woman's power to control her own body, and challenges the male-dominated medical model and business interests that promote bottle feeding.

3. Breastfeeding challenges the media model of women as consumers.

4. Breastfeeding challenges views of the breast as primarily a sex object.

5. Breastfeeding requires a new definition of women's work - one that more realistically integrates women's productive and reproductive activities.

6. Breastfeeding encourages solidarity and co-operation among women at the household, community, national, and international level.

What can Women's Groups do?

1. Campaign for politicians who support policies that help breastfeeding mothers.

1. Lobby national commissions on women and status of women groups to include breastfeeding in their action plans.

1. Boycott products whose advertising on TV and in magazines uses women's breasts as promotional tools.

1. Make sure that female babies are breastfed and given complementary foods as often as male babies.

1. Encourage artists to present paintings, photographs, poems, and plays celebrating the power of maternity and breastfeeding, and the beauty of breasts.

1. Welcome breastfeeding mothers at women's meetings and seminars, and provide child care facilities.

1. Ask key women in public office to endorse World Breastfeeding Week and to include breastfeeding messages in their speeches.

Very interesting thread will have a read of the Mother's Milk and Markets article now.

I'm planning to come back to the thread later this week with some of my own thoughts and experiences - it would be interesting to have thoughts on the "what women's groups can do".

Great post tabouleh

For me the huge feminist issue is the way breastmilk is just completely devalued because it comes from women. I believe in womb-envy; I see so many cases of it in literature, and in the way conglomerates have tried to subsitute the milk of our species with cow's milk, and have somehow passed it off as normal or better.

It confounds me that it is more socially acceptable to whip out a bottle than a breast. Breastfeeding is obscene in a posh restaurant in front of work colleagues; feeding a baby milk of another species of animal is not obscene. How have we reached this point?

Cows are born ready to walk, so cows milk is designed to build muscle. Human beings don't walk for a while because we're social animals and human milk is designed to build brains rather than not muscle. Gorilla milk is the closest to human milk but you can't farm gorillas.

It all boils down to devaluing women's work and trying to con women the same way women are conned with anti-ageing creams.

Obviously some women prefer not to BF, but I think if society made it easer for them to BF then many more women would

I didn't understand UQDad's POV at all. What does it matter if a husband is pro BF or not? In the husband's case all he has to do is step back and support his wife's wishes. I am grateful to my DH for sleeping on the spare fouton for a month after my babies were born so I could co-sleep with them and establish BF. Other mothers might prefer their husband to wake in the night with an expressed bottle of milk for the baby. Or even formula. The dad's role is to support the mother.

tanterose, yes the fact that Japanese mothers go to live with their mother is a huge help for breastfeeding, because their mother does all the cooking and cleaning so she can just spend all her time concentrating on the baby.

If the government doesn't shell out for a service like this (and it's unlikely ever to) then women's groups can perhaps volunteer to go to the houses of new mothers to do their shopping, laundry and cleaning. I'd volunteer for that

Sakura this is where I get in a knot - why can't the men help out? Why does it have to be women supporting each other to BF by doing unpaid domestic chores? Why can't a womans dad help her out after she has given birth?

"why can't the men help out?" - because in the UK they only get 2 weeks paternity leave at SPP rates ~ £123 per week...

UnquietDad - this is the Feminist topic - this is an interesting thread about feminist attitudes to BF - "theoretical" plus real life experiences of people who post here.

"It doesn't need to be an issue, and it doesn't need to be something where you first need to check how feminist it is, surely..."

1. Yes it is an issue - an important women's issue and very worthwhile discussing. (If you can't see why then don't try to discuss it with us).

1. Of course people are not "checking how feminist it is"

Have a look at my post above and that may give you some ideas about why BF is a feminist issue.

The fact that you boiled the thread down to;

"You are an Anti-Feminist Menz if you DO like your wife breastfeeding, because that means you are a lazy bugger who gets out of doing the feeds and it isn't truly joint parenting any more.

And you are an Anti-Feminist Menz if you DON'T like your wife breastfeeding, because the obvious and only reason for this is that she is Sharing The Norks Which Are Yours To Play With By Right Of The Patriarchy.

tells me everything I need to know about you

You have taken some of the points which are being discussed but your post has made it "what about the menz" .

And to think that I used to be about feminists claiming that this happens all the time.....

tabouleh I was responding to sakura's idea about womens groups volunteering to go and help new mothers, and how women go to stay with their mother after they have given birth.

Her ideas seem to assume that women have a lot more free time than men, and that older women don't work. The first things is that I don't see why it should just be up to women to help out with mothers/babies in society, and I don't see why it should be up to a womans mother to help her after she has given birth. Men are just as well placed to do these things, I don't see why it should all be down to women. If I have given birth and my dad has retired and my mum works, why can't he look after me?

Very interesting thread, marking my place.

ISNT - I see what you are saying. I guess I believe that women's support (in some cultures) of a new mother to establish BF is part of the reason why those cultures have higher BF rates.

I think that it is a fact (at the moment) that more older women don't work.

There is no way that my Dad would have been any use helping me after birth - this is due to the way me and my DBs were brought up.

Hopefully my own DH, having been more involved with DS, will be in a better position to help with any future GC - but I will still be better at helping and that is because I am a mother.

I think that women supporting women is a strong feminist thing to do - and personally I'd prefer a woman to help me give birth/establish breastfeeding. I don't find that at odds with my aspiration that more women suceed in business and politics etc.

I would be prepared to take holiday to help my future DIL if she so desired - so it wouldn't matter whether I was working or not.

Interesting thread. I will go against the grain and say that I am a feminist and agree with OP's initial suggestion - that exclusive breastfeeding does seriously undermine equality. That's not to say it's impossible (equality can still be achieved by the man doing virtually everything else!) but I know very few who do, and for the first six months, if you are the person who has to do all the night feeds, you are getting the rougher deal, regardless of what your husband does during the day.

This is the main reason why I chose to mix breast and bottle feeding. I did this for 3 months, at which point I switched to fully ff. Could have carried on breastfeeding, it was my choice to stop - so all the prophecies about my supply drying up proved to be unfounded.

That article in the Atlantic about the case against breastfeeding (which I suspect most people on here hated) contained a great line about 'breastfeeding is only free if you consider a woman's time to be of no value'.

I'm aware that breastfeeding has many benefits that outweigh this consideration of course, but that's one reason why I think more women should be encouraged to mix breast and bottle feeding, rather than being told it will never work! 4 out of my 6 NCT friends did it and it worked for all of us. Personally, I was not willing to sacrifice the equality, and I would have ff entirely rather than bf entirely so am glad I persisted with mix feeding and got it to work.