Is it easier to be a feminist if you are a lesbian?

[PosieParker]

Or are there really men out there that hold feminist values dear too?

Last night my DH said he called someone at work a 'pussy', I nearly choked on my food, since when is such language okay? Whilst my DH can be quite laddish and very far from feminist values I was attracted to him because he's quite masculine. I often wonder whether a more progressive and less Neanderthal man would get my attention or whether I'd find him to emasculated?

Interesting point SAF about some people preferring the cut and dried notions of gayness/straightness because it makes their own attraction to people of the same sex easier to explain. I have a friend who calls themself gay, now lives with someone of the same sex, yet slept with a lot more people of the opposite sex before this relationship began. I met with a stony response when I suggested that sleeping with loads of opposite sex people might indicate something more complex (towards bisexuality) than just plain 100% homosexuality. Not sure why really. (And before you say it's because I was being a nosy bat, we are very close)

Sakura: "I think marriage, I mean the idea behind monogamous marriage, is an ENORMOUS leap of faith and naivety optimism.
I mentioned on the another thread that SAHMism is very similar to prostitution and society has been set up in that way. "

Hmm...I disagree, actually...well, I mean, I don't entirely understand what you mean. My DH and I entered into monogomous marriage in a spirit of openness and honesty and trust and both believing in the security that having two parents who live in harmony with one another can give to children. I do agree that far too few couples go into marriage like this. Far too few couples talk to eachother honestly and openly and discuss issues giving eachother equal respect. I know I sound very smug, but I kind of am - DH and I work very hard at our marriage; keeping it equal; keeping us both happy; changing things as and when necessary to maintain that. I don't see that it was a leap of faith for us.

Also, is it all SAHMing that is akin to prostitution in your opinion, or just coerced SAHMing?

Bearing in mind how many people change career in their working lifetimes nowadays, does your concern about how you have no chance to gain any real power if you choose SAHPing hold water for people who have children very young and go onto have long, successful careers later on in life?

I ask because I had my last (of 4) baby aged 28 and, even if I don't start doing paid full-time work until she's 18, I'll still have plenty of time to have a fulfilling, exciting career.

Sakura - Sorry...making my way through this fascinating thread!

"I have been entirely faithful to DH for the 5 years we've been married. It has been okay, if a little dull compared to my pre-married life, and obviously my babies have more than filled the gap, but I don't think it's a natural set-up, just a societal one."

The tv prog I mentioned took the presenter to a longstanding free love commune in Germany, where they all tried to live with those principles. People still felt a great deal of jealousy and hurt when their lovers took other lovers.

No, I suppose that's true, SAF, except that I am working very part time self-employed, so I am making Class 2 NI contributions. I see that is not necessarily the case for most SAHPs.

At the times when I've felt most pissed off with men I've begun to wish I were a lesbian. I've even tried to persuade myself that I could be lesbian (against all evidence).

My DH would describe himself as feminist - but I think the social conditioning goes so deep that I'm not sure any man could truly be a feminist.

It's a bit like psychological experiments about 'aversive racists' - on the surface they proclaim anti-racist views but in psychological experiments their responses to priming tests demonstrate a hard wired level of prejudice that not even they are aware of or would consciously want to ascribe to.

I think ultimately all men are a bit like that about women - the mass exploitation of women that has gone on for generations leaves its mark on the most apparently enlightened of men. The evidence of this seeps out at unexpected moments. (Like in a heated debate with my DH when he suddenly announced I was 'lucky' that he did 'so much' childcare, as most men were 'so much worse' than him - this is what psychologists would call the use of societal normative standards to justify inequality).

So all in all, I think it must be easier to be feminist and lesbian because by not having to consort with men, you must ended up feeling less sullied by having to collude (however unwillingly) in their warped value systems.

Rant over. And actually I do love my DH, but not his conditioning into certain male modes of behaviour.

"yes you can regain a career or build one for the first time but none the less a woman who is married and relies upon her husbands income can be left suddenly and find herself in a very difficult financial situation and that career won't be instant and won't be easy to build whilst raising small children solo.

not saying the gamble shouldn't be taken just that it exists."

Yes, I see what you're saying. Does it work the other way around? There are men who are left in the lurch by women who abandon their families. Not just a feminist issue, then.

If women are brought up have high self-esteem and a good understanding of relationships and the politics of relationships, then are they less likely to find themselves with an unreliable partner? My mother was brought up in a very secure family but came to feminism as a young woman and certainly wasn't brought up in a feminist family - her first marriage was to a charming shit. Her second was to someone very like my husband. I have been brought up in a feminist household, and decided I would never marry when I thought men were all like my real dad. My step-dad restored my faith in men (not all, obviously, but in the potential that there are men out there who aren't shits) and I married someone very like him in terms of values and principles. I was lucky to find him, I know. But I wouldn't have let myself end up with a shit - I have too much self-respect to do that...thanks to my upbringing from my wonderful mum and step-dad.

Lacking,
The "marriage is prostitution" is something that some feminists believe, and I am one of them. It's the economic dependancy and security that woman gets under a patriarchal society, in exchange for sexual monogamy and that any children you bear will belong to your husband alone, which makes it akin to prostitution in most cases. IF you are a SAHM, like me, then the economic dependace becomes more obvious. I discussed it in detail in the last few pages of this thread.

I love my DH, I have been with him for 5 years, but I don't think our stability has anything to do with my self-esteem. I new he'd be a good husband, and I turned down so many exciting and beautiful men to be with my stable husband. You can't blame some women for not being as pragmatic as me. LOve does not conquer all, basically, especially if children are involved, and I knew this before I married. Other women are swept off their feet; it's not a character fault (I'm not talking about abusive cycles)

I am lucky enough to be able to return to a good job so I won't be dependant on my DH forever, but I believe many prostitutes choose their work because the thought of doing other types of women's work, like on the checkout of a supermarket, a bum-wiper, or at Mcdonalds FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE is too soul-destroying to contemplate. I think it's the same for the SAHM who doesn't go back to work after raising children but instead relies on her husband. For a woman your economic opportunities shrink even before you have children.

Not all marriages are like this. SOme women earn more than their husband. MY own mother was the breadwinner, however I do think there is something about the set-up of marriage that is about posessing women's sexuality. At least traditionally, that has been the case.

I think serial monogamy is probably the norm for most people. As I said, I wouldn't have an affair because I would be so hurt if DH did that to me. I don't know if our marriage will last forever but for us it represents the commitment to our children above all else, I think. It's hard now the kids are tiny, any marriage is, but who knows, we may end up popping the champagne corks and having a second honeymoong when the kids leave home!

Oh, and I just read your posts about attatchment theory on the other thread and I feel exactly the same way as you about those issues, which is why I've taken the path of sacrificing my economic independance for being with my babies ( am still BF my 1 year old). For me, my identity as a mother outweighs my identity as a worker or a wife and I have arranged my life accordingly. However, it has made me very very vulnerable

I wouldn't agree about teenagers having the best sex lives. My memories of my own teenage years was that I was very very confused and uncertain in myself and that my romantic and sexual encounters were mostly fairly painful. As I recall many of my friends (male and female) were similarly confused and conflicted. Lots of pressure to be in a relationship and lots of pressure to have sex, but often not much fun. Sexually I had no idea what I wanted, and really didn't get a proper sex drive or that much sexual pleasure until I was probably in my mid-thirties.

Having said that I've never found anyone else attractive other than my dh, and we met in our late teens. I didn't even fancy anyone when we separated, which was most annoying.

My siblings and I were brought up in a fairly feminist environment - my mother has an odd mix of feminist and traditional views, but was always fairly formidable whilst my father was very encouraging for all his children to achieve, and was certainly my main role model. Both my sisters and I have however chosen fairly unreliable partners (certainly in economic terms, but also emotionally in some ways), and I slightly wonder if that's because we are all quite dominant and therefore didn't want to choose traditional high achieving husband because of the compromises that entailed for our own choices. Of course we ended up with other compromises instead.

Lots of interesting thoughts as always. Here are some random thoughts of my own.

SAF - We seem to have the same opinion on sexuality. I've never understood how you can define yourself one way of the other. It's always been the person I'm attracted to. In a way I can understand being straight and bi, but not completely lesbian/gay. Though reading through I am starting to.

Sakura - I'm at work, but yet I plan to extend bf my LO, the plan is to avoid dairy hopefully full stop, as it seems very unnatural to me (yes I'm aware that I consume a lot if other unnatural stuff in my diet). Its just you keep mentioning this, and I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. She is still fully bf (nearly 6 months) and I've been back at work full time for 2 months).

I agree with other posters that I find it hard not to take advantage of DH as it's very easy. He has always done more chores than me. I'm sure he doesn't worry about me leaving him in the lurch financially. However, if the relationship were to breakup, I've always assumed it would be me doing it.

I wouldn't say DH is a feminist, but thats mainly because he is one of the least observant people I know. He is however one of the most equal people I know. (what's the term for this) When I point things out, he is always open.

In terms of baby care, even before I went back to work we both felt like the other person did more than them, so I figure that means the balance is about right. He was always surprised at how the other men in our NCT group acted, and was shocked at how little they did and that they went out all day playing cricket or watching football. It doesn't even enter his head to do these things.

Of course, unless you've experienced something you can't understand how it feels. Although he accepts that prejudice exists, he can't understand the effects of all the subtle power play that exists that drives down a lot of females confidence. It's interesting that people discussing race/class etc. are probably having the equivalent discussions.

nooka: I wouldn't descrine DH as high achieving.

Sorry bit of a ramble and probably off topic (been trying to get LO to sleep for over 90mins and been very glad of the distraction)

I didn't realise it was so long

I hope it worked on the getting your baby to sleep front! My dd got to watch a lot of SimSity on her dad's jiggly knee as she just refused to go to sleep without movement for many months (nightmare baby, lovely child )

nooka, re teenage sex lives. I did say in my experience. I don't know if its a cultural difference, I'm Welsh and historically the welsh have never had the same hang-ups about legitimate pregnancies, for example.
And I'm not necessarily talking about penetrative sex.

illegitimate pregnancies

no Climber, I BF and work are not mutually exclusive. I also work very PT and have a job where I can keep my hand in at home, so this is the absolute ideal scenario and I think this is what feminists should be working towards, rather than fighting for the father to take time off work in the first year of a baby's life so the mother can go back to work.

Lots of MNers are middle class, with options, but look at the jobs available to most women: maccy Ds, checkout of Tescos, bum-wiper to name a few.
I think the class issue is a massive part of feminism

I've always thought it came down to respect of womens abilities: If a female can do it, then it must be easy e.g. secretaries. I've always assumed that if this job was done by mostly males, then it would be a much more respected profession.

As for work, it would be good if we had a system where people did 20-30hours as a norm, then at least most people would have time to live as well as work and help various other issues.

As for class, I'm originally from a council estate now masquerading as middle class I suppose. It's been a very interesting journey, which I hope has brought me some insight.

Yes nooka it did work (though she's going through a growth spurt so it won't last long). That means it bed time for me too, no doubt I'll come back to lots and lots of posts to read as always .

it's a bit of both. ANy job loses value if enough women start doing it (teaching, medicine etc)

But coupled with that lots of women have to work around the children. Part time, low pay, temp work, contracts etc.

Coupled with that, lots of women want to BF their babies and some even want to SAH with them, therefore the father of those babies gets to stay in his job and possibly promoted.

LOts of questions.

But we have created a society where women are forced to leave their babies. WOmen have always been forced to leave their babies to work. The industrial revolution was based on women's slave labour, but now people have been convinced it's in the name of equality.

I'm not so sure that's true for the majority of women of a low socio-economic status

On the basis that presumably more lesbians are into fairness between the sexes than all women and men are the answer to the question must be yes but as the thread shows there are plenty of non sexist men around and feminism is at least as much about ensuring there is no sexism the other way too.

Hi Sakura, I wasn't necessarily meaning full on sex either, just that handling relationships and knowing what you want can be very difficult when you are growing up, both of which are fairly key to a happy sex life IMO. I didn't know the Welsh were more laisse faire - I went to university in Aberystwyth which seemed very straightlaced as a town to me as a London lass.

I've just found that I am so much more confident as a "grown up" adult in what I want and how to ask for it, and many of my friends seem to feel the same way, I think it can be very liberating to move out of your first flush of youth and realise that loads of stuff you were really bothered about really don't matter at all. Perhaps part of that is career success, and part is about about becoming confident parents (past the tricky baby stage that is). I'm not sure, but it is quite nice :)

Aberystwyth straight laced!!!
Which Aber did you go to?
Lots of tumbling about in the hayfields goes on in Aber from any age

My DH is Japanese and I invited him to Aber to stay with my bro for the weekend before we married...

Put it this way, he had his eyes opened by the laisse faire attitudes

Honestly I've had the opposite experience to you, nooka.
I had a whale of a time as a teenager and couldn't wait to be an adult, because of course I knew it would get better.

And then it didn't

It was an anti-climax because all the adult "secrets" were just shit and things I'd already learned. IN fact I'd say a lot of adult sexuality is a process of unlearning what you innately know

Strange how our experiences have been so different, isn't it

Is this a class thing nooka? I've got working class origins