So it would appear this topic is the Millwall of Mumsnet

[GothAnneGeddes]

Nobody likes us and we don't care.

I have to admit I lurk more then I post here, but to me, it's great being able to have everyday things discussed through a feminist lens, especially as most feminist websites are so US-centric.

It's just such a shame that so many women don't think that feminism is relevant to them. I just don't understand it.

nancy, as I said before, you mentioned earlier in the thread that you'd been attacked for being a SAHM,

I'm a SAHM and I think this feminist topic is one of the only places where being a woman suddenly becomes more important than being a SAHM/WOHM. Xenia and I are the antithesis of each other but I respect her as the feminist she is. I enjoy putting forward my perspective and sometimes my mind is changes, sometimes I realise I was right all along.

The reason I personally have been defensive on this thread is because you do get groups of people coming on specifically to attack certain threads, I mean that's their entire motivation of signing up to MN.

But that happened a lot before the election too on the politics threads.

OTOH it is nastier heres sometimes when people don't want to "hear" the feminist POV because that POV doesn't exist outside of feminist debate and therefore is a new POV.

But I think I've educated people here that you can be a SAHM and a feminist

Yes I took offence and I left. I don't think that was an unreasonable response in the circumstances and I only raise it now as this thread has been a discussion of why people don't like this area of MN.

I have illustrated why I don't: I feel it is clique, belittling and actually as feminist area very unsuportive of woman who do not confirm to the MN feminist ideal.

The perception that an MN feminist ideal exists may not in fact be true but as this thread has illustrated it is not an uncommon one.

It matters not - the regulars who post here are clearly happy with the way in which this area operates and will no doubt continue to gain a great deal from it. I am simply stating, with no critcism intended, that they should not be suprised if a large proportion of MN continue to find this area "out of bounds".

Well, during this thread, and in fact every time people start a thread to criticize the feminist section, you get loads of new people, lurkers, coming on saying it's great and the best part of MN, and the first place they go to check and they love it etc

aitch x posts - but a great irony (in the context of this thread) is that a major deciding factor in why I became a SAHM is that I could no longer bear representing the rapists and paedophiles that as a young, not unattractive female barrister often become your mainstay.

Seeing as I've been here since the feminist section opened, could you let me know where exactly you were attacked for being a SAHM?

Because I've been on loads of discussion threads on here about being a SAHM and I've never been attacked.

Actually yes I have been attacked come to think about it, but I've never thought the SAHM thing was a reason to stay away, and I've never been viciously attacked for being a SAHM like I have been in other topics.

it must be very difficult. and yet it's a job that needs doing, and if they're paying or if your boss wants to win then it's exactly the young attractive plausible woman they'll choose to represent them. pretty gross for you, really.

i'd LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE to be a sahm. would it adversely affect my feminist status?

sakura sorry I thought I'd posted earlier about that - not since this topic has been open but over the years, on MN generally, I personally have been attacked a couple of times and have witnessed some very bloody battles.

I confess that I don't get deeply involved in the debate aspect of the feminism threads. As someone who is finding her way in the feminist arena (and it is difficult to articulate this without sounding deliberatley self deprecating - which is not my intention I am trying to express myself in a very genuine manner) and who isn't yet sure what her corner is and if she even has one I do find the hostility displayed here intimidating.

Me too - Aitch! But I'd want my own independent income, not be reliant on my husband earning.

why do people think they have ownership over certain sections of the board?

this all sounds mad

Honestly, all of you step back, remind yourselves how old you are and forget about it for heavens sake. It is a forum board with different sections on it. Perspective purlease

aitch From a defence POV I think all lawyers feel very strongly in the right of every individual to have the best available defence and often from an intellectual pov the work was interesting and challenging but eventually (partcularly after I had children) that visit to the cells after a court hearing just became unbearable.

From a prosecution POV seeing the same crap every day is just depressing beyond belief.

Maybe this is not the thread for it but two memories stand out in my mind years and years after the event and they both factored in my decision to stop doing the work I did.

Once was when I actually objected (as I had to) during a bail application to the police giving evidence that the victim had stated she had been anally penetrated when in fact she had stated she had been vaginally penetrated. As if it f-ing mattered - the victim was a child and it still makes me feel sick when I think about it.

Another was when I prosecuted a DV case victim and defendant strolled into an interview room, arms wrapped round each other, mother in tow. Victim was refusing to give evidence (husband had kicked front door down and beaten her severly enough to warrant a hospital stay) saying that it was just one of those things, he was the father of her children she loved him etc etc. They then proceeded to suck the face of each other whilst her mother berrated me for the police bringing the case in the first place stating that she wouldn't have made a complaint but they needed to so the council would pay for the door to be fixed.

I got to the point where I just thought what hope is there?

Anyway I have to run I have an appointment to (dare I admit this....) have my eyelashes dyed before I go off on holiday.

yes, to deal with semantics and petty legalities on a child abuse case must be galling, i'm sure.

re the DV, i remember the first day i worked in a pub the landlord telling me Never to get involved in a fight between a man and a woman because nine times out of ten they'd turn on you when it was over. he'd been forty years in the trade and seen it all. not the same, of course, and very complicated, but still, it was his genuine insight.

nancy

At least you have been there, fighting the good fight, with all the moral complexities and shades of grey.

I've a friend who works with men convicted of domestic violence. He chooses men whom he thinks will benefit from counselling and therapy to help them stop.

Is he a supporter of domestic violence? No. He is a good man, trying to stop it happening again and again. yes. And he is conflicted about it. But at least he is there doing it and not pontificating at a keyboard like many judgeypants on this forum.

And at the moment I am a SAHM because I cannot get a fucking job and may be a little bit short tempered with those banging on about not being a happy feminist if their husband is supporting them. Thanks.

Really interested in what would constitute being hurt by pornographers. Like, women in the porn industry hurt by them? Or other women?

Yes it is an alternative to prison. But prison doesn't stop it happening again, either to an existing partner on release, or to another woman. The hope is that the behaviour can be addresed for good. A vain hope maybe.

In terms of women barristers, I would also say that someone needs to defend the 'indefensible' because those defendants have the right to a fair hearing, no matter what. And I don't see the conflict in a woman doing this job as one which is unfeminist... I would rather it was done by strong women than by little men.

The same could be said for the female doctor who saves the rapist's life or the female psychiatrist who treats the paedophile. Or is this purely male territory?

I suppose we are back to 'feminist choices,' aren't we.

"The female lawyer who defends a rapist or wife beater is actively standing in the way of a female victim getting justice."

Gosh - no wonder nancydrewrocked felt hounded out of Feminism .

I guess sometimes I find the radical femist line hard to take! But that's ok - there's room for ALL feminists here.

I might get better at recognising radical feminist ideas v liberal feminist ideas now!

I wpould say that the more women occupying high positions of power within the legal system, the more seriously violence against women, will be viewed by the judiciary. As some barristers eventually become judges.

Defending these crimes is the bum end of the job. But someone has to do it. I would rather it was a strong intelligent woman who could eventualy make a difference than a man watching th clock.

"these women destroyers should be defended by misogynistic men, not by women"

I can't help feeling that if I was a rape victim I'd rather be cross-examined by a woman than a misogynistic man....