War and Peace Readalong thread 2022 - thread 2

[VikingNorthUtsire]

"The finest novel ever written on this planet"
"Here is a novel that is worth whatever time one gives to it. There is more life between its cover than in any other existent fictional narrative"

This is a really helpful blog post by someone who has done the challenge: nicksenger.com/onecatholiclife/announcing-the-2020-war-and-peace-chapter-a-day-read-along

1. Translations

The main complication seems to be which edition to choose. The blog post above contains some commentary of the different tranlsations that are available and their merits. There's also a pretty comprehensive guide here including samples from some of the best-known translations: welovetranslations.com/2021/08/31/whats-the-best-translation-of-war-and-peace-by-tolstoy/

The main differences that I can see are:

• some editions (including the free download on Project Gutenburg) have a different chapter structure. I think/hope we would manage to find one another if some are reading versions with more or fewer chapters but I have based the readalong on the versions with 361 chapters.
• there's quite a lot of French in at least some parts of the book. Some editions translate it into English, others keep it in French but use footnotes
• some translators have chosen to anglicise the characters' names. I guess its personal preference whether you prefer Mary, Andrew and Basil or a more Russian version.

Looking at the editions recommended and reviewed in the above blog:

The Vintage Classics edition, translated by Pevear and Volokhonsky: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Vintage-Classics-Tolstoy/dp/0099512246/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

NB also this link for the kindle version: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Vintage-Classic-Russians-ebook/dp/B005CUS9AG/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

The Signet Classics edition, translated by Anne Dunnigan: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Signet-Classics-Tolstoy-ebook/dp/B001RWQVXA/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

The Penguin Classics edition, translated by Anthony Briggs: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Penguin-Popular-Classics-ebook/dp/B0033805UG/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

As a general rule I would definitely recommend downloading a sample of any kindle edition before buying, so you can be sure that you are happy with it.

Obviously, some people will prefer to avoid Amazon! Feel free to use the weeks in the run-up to Day 1 to share any tips on what you are buying and where from. Can I suggest though that we stick where possible to the editions with 361 chapters otherwise we will all get very confused!

1. Reading timeline

Nick, of the blog post, has very helpfully done the calculations for which chapters fall on which days, except he did it in 2020 which was a Leap Year. So feel free to take a look at nicksenger.com/onecatholiclife/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Nicks-2020-War-and-Peace-Chapter-a-Day-Reading-Schedule.pdf but see below the schedule for the Mumsnet Readalong.

Again, different editions name and number their chapters differently - some refer to four books divided into parts (as below), others refer to fifteen books although it's essentially the same structure just with different numbering. Hopefully there's enough info below to keep us all in sync, and always happy to let anyone know via PM what's happening in today's chapter so we can keep together.

Book 1: 1805
Book 1 Part One (25 chapters): 1/1 - 25/1
Book 1 Part Two (21 chapters): 26/1 - 15/2
Book 1 Part Three (19 chapters): 16/2 - 6/3
DAY OFF: 7/3
Book 2: 1806-1812
Book 2 Part One (16 chapters): 8/3 - 23/3
Book 2 Part Two (21 chapters): 24/3 - 13/4
Book 2 Part Three (26 chapters): 14/4 - 9/5
Book 2 Part Four (13 chapters): 10/5 - 22/5
Book 2 Part Five (22 chapters): 23/5 - 13/6
DAY OFF: 14/6
Book 3: 1812
Book Three Part One (23 chapters): 15/6 - 7/7
Book Three Part Two (39 chapters): 8/7 - 15/8
Book Three Part Three (34 chapters): 16/8 - 18/9
DAY OFF: 19/9
Book 4: 1812-13
Book Four Part One (16 chapters): 20/9 - 5/10
Book Four Part Two (19 chapters): 6/10 - 24/10
Book Four Part Three (19 chapters): 25/10 - 12/11
Book Four Part Four (20 chapters): 13/11 - 2/12
DAY OFF: 3/12
Epilogue One 1812-20 (16 chapters): 3/12 - 19/12
Epilogue Two (12 chapters): 20/12 - 31/12

Phew!

I would suggest that we meet at the end of each section (so 17 times over the course of the year) to discuss what we've read, but with (non-spoilerish) chatter welcome at any time in between. According to my guru, Nick, each chapter is around 4 pages long, so it should be do-able.

1. Chapter "meditations"

This looks like another really interesting blog post from someone who has done it, with thoughts and meditations on each chapter: brianedenton.medium.com/a-year-of-war-and-peace-cc66540d9619#.yabefbbgz

Come and join me! This time next year we will almost have finished reading the finest novel ever written on the planet.

PS Some may feel that each day off deserves a shot of vodka or two. I couldn't possibly comment.

😆tempting!

I love that first image, BakeOff - really beautiful.

I got all excited when Dolokhov was mentioned as got him confused with Denisov and thought he was back from the dead... instead, its the spiteful, unkind man that I don't care about at all!

Thank you for posting those images @BakeOffRewatch they are fabulous.

I loved the people-spotting in this chapter.

I think Anna M has reached peak smugness now after Boris' engagement!

@SanFranBear I got confused too, there are lots of near identical names eg Kuragin and Karagin!

I'm a bit late with this observation but I absolutely loved the engagement of Boris and Julie back in Chapter 5 - thought it was reminiscent of Jane Austen at her most zing-y

Yes @RebeccaNoodles I see what you mean! Definitely something of an Austen-esque feel to it.

I was looking for illustrations of Natasha’s first ball to see what the women are wearing. There’s so many references to them being practically naked, at the ball itself Natasha feels uncomfortable being that bare but at ease that it was the done thing at such events (Book 2, part 3, Chapter XVI “… while Natasha looked like a young girl bared for the first time and would have been very ashamed of it, if she had not been assured that it had necessarily to be so.”). Then this chapter starts with Pierre’s musings on the hypocrisy of society, and then the old Prince Bolkonsky’s party talks about French gods and women “… sat all but naked, like a signboard for a public bath-house”. Then in today's chapter, Natasha is bare above the elbows. I can’t match up what Tolstoy describes with what I know of 1800s ball gowns. Can anyone help please with images?

How gorgeous are these 1820 gowns? fiveminutehistory.com/belle-of-the-ball-a-5-minute-guide-to-ball-gowns/

Are Bourienne and the Old Prince Bolkonsky having a thing for real? She’s certainly enjoying the position it affords her but also seems to be simpering around him? And he embraced Bourienne before flying off the handle at Marya and telling her to go away? I agree his disdainful emphasis on the word God was a give away that he walked in in his PJs on purpose. He’s testing boundaries, he’s got so used to being awful in his closed enclave, I don’t think he knows (regardless of any senility) normal social boundaries anymore.

I’m pretty sure in Chapter 2 it’s Helene herself who tells Pierre to bog off, rather than an acquaintance, so another unreliable Gradesaver. “…and began leading such a life that Elena Vassilievna felt it necessary to reprimand him sternly.”. That’s Helene.

Book 2, Part 5, Chapter II - “For him Moscow was comfortable, warm, habitual, and dirty, like an old dressing gown,” - I loved this line! I know exactly what Tolstoy means. Said from my dressing gown

Is there any books or good fan fiction from Hélène’s point of view? She seems so badass and really winning at this society game whilst maintaining her freedom and independence.

I had no idea Napoleon went as far as annexing Rome and arresting the Pope. Wow. Boris must be genuinely charming to be received by Old Prince Bolkonsky.

Is Julie Karagin meant to be repulsive in some way? No illustrations found via Google search. I found their courtship amusing too, like teens sharing emo song lyrics.

Did anyone else see a huge parallel between Prince Andrei Bolkonsky going to the minister of war from the front and Natasha going to Old Prince Bolkonsky? In both, they’re in huge anticipation and excitement but their mood and countenance entirely sours to the point they become quite surly and unlikeable based on how they are received and their perception they were not received as they were meant to be.

That's interesting @BakeOffRewatch - those gowns look right for the period don't they, maybe the previous fashions had longer sleeves and less décolletage? Those. empire lines are quite bosomy

Chapter 9
After her time in the country, Natasha finds the opera “pretentiously false and unnatural” (561). She meets Anatole Kuragin for the first time. Hélène Bezukhov invites Natasha and Sonya to sit in her box.
I think 'she meets Anatole Kuragin for the first time.' Is a masterclass in understatement here from Gradesaver! And although either Natasha or Sonya is invited to join Hélène's box it is only Natasha who moves across. (I wonder how much they pay for someone to précis the chapters of classic novels, you obviously don't have to pay too much attention to the actual plot!)

I think 'she meets Anatole Kuragin for the first time.' Is a masterclass in understatement here

😆 She is most definitely a little smitten, isn't she! He's obviously very charismatic and handsome.. well, they're a beautiful family by all accounts (even Hippolyte (sp) who is an imbecile is welcome everywhere and presume its his prettiness and social standing?)

Those dresses are interesting and I'm wondering if the bust area used to be highly decorated as Helene is described as having a 'naked bosum' this chapter and I'm pretty sure she didn't have her breasts out for the whole opera house to see!

I tried to find out which opera they were watching but all I could find was that scholars think it was one called Robert de Diable (is that Robert the Devil?) and that there is a War & Peace opera - which sounds ace.. although how you'd pack everything in is beyond me!

I thought that Anatole and Hélène were the good-looking ones and that Hippolyte was awkward and ungainly.

I bought the Briggs in paperback as I missed having a flick back on what I read. I'll look up Hippolyte later on.

I also wondered what the opera was, SanFranbear :) Robert Le Diable?! Interesting!

The gowns look lovely and are what I was thinking of going by the description. Not very shocking either by modern standards!

Chapter 10
Anatole joins the women in his sister’s box. Natasha feels uncontrollably attracted to him.

I feel very sorry for Natasha here. A horrible feeling to have especially when her lack of worldly knowledge will make her think it's much worse than it actually is. I was wondering if Pierre might warn her off Kuragin but he's too busy with his drinking!

I agree, Rebecca. Natasha could really do with an older friend right now.
Unfortunately it's not Pierre. He's oblivious to what's going on, even if it's right under his nose.

Chapter 11
As it turns out, Anatole secretly married a peasant girl while he was in Poland, and paid off her father for permission to pass himself off as a bachelor. Anatole confides in Dolokhov about his attraction to Natasha.

Chapter 12
Marya Dmitrievna visits Count Rostov to discuss Natasha, but neither will reveal the subject to the young girl, who is annoyed in addition to depressed about her fiance's absence. Hélène Bezukhov visits Natasha and invites her to a soirée she is holding. She also genially reveals that Anatole is in love with Natasha.

Shocker!! I love a secret marriage in fiction . I am reading through my fingers (so to speak) at the thought of Kuragin getting his paws on Natasha. Though it might be for the best if she breaks off her engagement ...? It's very gripping and I'm glad I've avoided spoilers.

The thread is quiet - hope everyone is enjoying the bank holiday in the sun.

Chapter 13
At Hélène’s soirée, Anatole dances with Natasha and desperately reveals his love for her. Natasha says nothing and leaves with her father, but that night she decides that she loves both Anatole and Prince Andrei.

No sun here today - it's been raining on and off all morning. I'm still reading along, but haven't posted recently. Anatole is vile, isn't he? I mean, I'm not a huge fan of young Natasha and Andrey, he seems far too worldly wise for her and she's so frivolous and silly, but Anatole is a creep and I fear for Natasha's virtue and reputation. She's a lamb and he's a wolf.

Its very much Fanny Price / Henry Crawford isn't it - except that Natasha hasn't even got a great option if she sticks with Andrey

I have also been reading but not posting I have a couple weeks of the academic year left, and I'm struggling with feelings of fatigue and burnout, sigh. My uni just carries on with teaching as normal through the bank holidays as well not very Jubilee-friendly.🙄But never mind, summer is in sight!

It's been interesting to see all the Gradesaver errors pointed out! How many hapless students have been led astray I wonder?!

I’m finding Part 5 quite riveting. I liked the portrait of Pierre in the 1st chapter – how he has to keep himself busy in order not to think about ‘the insoluble questions in life’. It reminded me a lot of the French philosopher Pascal who also writes about how humans are constantly seeking distractions in order to stave off their ‘ennui’ or existential angst. I checked to see whether Tolstoy read Pascal, and was gratified to find out that he was a Pascal fan!

I agree that Anatole is awful! I thought it was the other brother, Hippolyte, who reportedly had the incestuous relationship with Helene, but I checked and it was Helene and Anatole. The incest seems to fit well with their narcissism – two beautiful people who don’t really care about anyone apart from themselves.
It seems like Natasha’s in a kind of dragons’ den, caught between that amoral sister-brother pair. She doesn’t have the language to define her own intensely emerging sexual feelings, so she thinks she loves that creepy predator Anatole. At least she has her good old dad and the no-nonsense Marya Dmitrievna trying to protect her.

It makes me sad that Princess Marya (another Marya!) is so anti-Natasha, but the psychology of it seems quite plausible. Her abusive father is more abusive than ever, and she doesn’t even have the fantasy of a female friendship with Julie to sustain her. She seems so very alone.

I actually really want Natasha and Andrei to get together. They're both characters with depth. But I don't know if they will.

Oh gosh I accidentally used double dashes as punctuation again, forgetting that that strikes text out on MN. Sorry!

BTW I can see how Natasha and Andrei might seem like a mismatch. But I think she's clever and interesting as well as being young and spoilt. I like her intensity. And I think Andrei has a soft heart and would be potentially transformed by True Love (I mean that partly tongue in cheek, but only partly). Hopeless romantic here😍 I guess.

I’m still reading along but not posting - I’m usually a bit behind and playing catch up plus I don’t usually have anything much to add that others haven’t already said. Natasha really does need to make her mind up though!