War and Peace Readalong thread 2022 - thread 2

[VikingNorthUtsire]

"The finest novel ever written on this planet"
"Here is a novel that is worth whatever time one gives to it. There is more life between its cover than in any other existent fictional narrative"

This is a really helpful blog post by someone who has done the challenge: nicksenger.com/onecatholiclife/announcing-the-2020-war-and-peace-chapter-a-day-read-along

1. Translations

The main complication seems to be which edition to choose. The blog post above contains some commentary of the different tranlsations that are available and their merits. There's also a pretty comprehensive guide here including samples from some of the best-known translations: welovetranslations.com/2021/08/31/whats-the-best-translation-of-war-and-peace-by-tolstoy/

The main differences that I can see are:

• some editions (including the free download on Project Gutenburg) have a different chapter structure. I think/hope we would manage to find one another if some are reading versions with more or fewer chapters but I have based the readalong on the versions with 361 chapters.
• there's quite a lot of French in at least some parts of the book. Some editions translate it into English, others keep it in French but use footnotes
• some translators have chosen to anglicise the characters' names. I guess its personal preference whether you prefer Mary, Andrew and Basil or a more Russian version.

Looking at the editions recommended and reviewed in the above blog:

The Vintage Classics edition, translated by Pevear and Volokhonsky: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Vintage-Classics-Tolstoy/dp/0099512246/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

NB also this link for the kindle version: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Vintage-Classic-Russians-ebook/dp/B005CUS9AG/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

The Signet Classics edition, translated by Anne Dunnigan: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Signet-Classics-Tolstoy-ebook/dp/B001RWQVXA/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

The Penguin Classics edition, translated by Anthony Briggs: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Penguin-Popular-Classics-ebook/dp/B0033805UG/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

As a general rule I would definitely recommend downloading a sample of any kindle edition before buying, so you can be sure that you are happy with it.

Obviously, some people will prefer to avoid Amazon! Feel free to use the weeks in the run-up to Day 1 to share any tips on what you are buying and where from. Can I suggest though that we stick where possible to the editions with 361 chapters otherwise we will all get very confused!

1. Reading timeline

Nick, of the blog post, has very helpfully done the calculations for which chapters fall on which days, except he did it in 2020 which was a Leap Year. So feel free to take a look at nicksenger.com/onecatholiclife/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Nicks-2020-War-and-Peace-Chapter-a-Day-Reading-Schedule.pdf but see below the schedule for the Mumsnet Readalong.

Again, different editions name and number their chapters differently - some refer to four books divided into parts (as below), others refer to fifteen books although it's essentially the same structure just with different numbering. Hopefully there's enough info below to keep us all in sync, and always happy to let anyone know via PM what's happening in today's chapter so we can keep together.

Book 1: 1805
Book 1 Part One (25 chapters): 1/1 - 25/1
Book 1 Part Two (21 chapters): 26/1 - 15/2
Book 1 Part Three (19 chapters): 16/2 - 6/3
DAY OFF: 7/3
Book 2: 1806-1812
Book 2 Part One (16 chapters): 8/3 - 23/3
Book 2 Part Two (21 chapters): 24/3 - 13/4
Book 2 Part Three (26 chapters): 14/4 - 9/5
Book 2 Part Four (13 chapters): 10/5 - 22/5
Book 2 Part Five (22 chapters): 23/5 - 13/6
DAY OFF: 14/6
Book 3: 1812
Book Three Part One (23 chapters): 15/6 - 7/7
Book Three Part Two (39 chapters): 8/7 - 15/8
Book Three Part Three (34 chapters): 16/8 - 18/9
DAY OFF: 19/9
Book 4: 1812-13
Book Four Part One (16 chapters): 20/9 - 5/10
Book Four Part Two (19 chapters): 6/10 - 24/10
Book Four Part Three (19 chapters): 25/10 - 12/11
Book Four Part Four (20 chapters): 13/11 - 2/12
DAY OFF: 3/12
Epilogue One 1812-20 (16 chapters): 3/12 - 19/12
Epilogue Two (12 chapters): 20/12 - 31/12

Phew!

I would suggest that we meet at the end of each section (so 17 times over the course of the year) to discuss what we've read, but with (non-spoilerish) chatter welcome at any time in between. According to my guru, Nick, each chapter is around 4 pages long, so it should be do-able.

1. Chapter "meditations"

This looks like another really interesting blog post from someone who has done it, with thoughts and meditations on each chapter: brianedenton.medium.com/a-year-of-war-and-peace-cc66540d9619#.yabefbbgz

Come and join me! This time next year we will almost have finished reading the finest novel ever written on the planet.

PS Some may feel that each day off deserves a shot of vodka or two. I couldn't possibly comment.

I think that Sonya said she saw something in the mirror because they expected her to and she wanted to please them.

Oh, I agree... I just wanted her to hang onto her forwardness and stand up for herself and say what she actually saw! Ah well, she is who she is but I liked the Sonya of the last couple of chapters. Hope she doesn't disappear for good!

Chapter 13
Nikolai tells his parents that he plans to marry Sonya. They disapprove, especially the countess. He leaves for his regiment, but his announcement has sown tension and discord amongst the family. Natasha begins to resent Prince Andrei for his long absence. The family travels to Moscow to prepare for Natasha’s wedding.

I was sorry to see the discord and strife in the Rostov household and the shabby treatment of Sonya.
I know what you mean, SanFranBear. I think she has reverted to her usual subservient self.

I’m all caught up. I thought Nikolai was gallant in his defence of Sonya against his mother, but it’s all so dire for the Rostovs at the moment. I’m looking forward to the next part…

Another block finished - where is the time going? After barely even skimming the hunt section, thanks for the warnings, I really enjoyed the end of this block. Tolstoy is so brilliant at manoeuvring Nicholas into fancying himself in love with Sonya, via the fake moustache of all things, and showing us how Nicholas becomes convinced of his attachment while leaving us sceptical. Then the scene with his parents where we see that his father's pressure points are around his own guilt about leaving the estate in such a mess. And Natasha's intervention to head-off a family rift. Great stuff.

Analysis of last section by Gradesaver
This section provides the longest and most focused examination of youthful attitudes in the transitional period that the novel details. Focused on the young Rostov children, it explores the same themes as earlier - search for spiritual fulfillment, the simplicity of life vs. the complications of society, and the difficulties of relationships - though now through characters who possess less sophistication and complications than their older counterparts in the previous sections.
The hunting chapters in this section come as a peaceful interlude to the tense interpersonal drama that comes before and after. Tolstoy was heavily influenced by Jean-Jacques Rousseau, a French philosopher who argued that people are happiest in a “state of nature”––that is, far from civilization and obeying their natural instincts. Tolstoy alludes to Rousseau explicitly earlier in the novel, when Prince Nikolai Bolkonskyy_ compares his daughter’s correspondence with Julie Karagin to Julie: ou la nouvelle Héloïse, an epistolary novel by that author.
In some ways, the simplicity that the younger people find in nature, and particularly at the uncle's estate, is an argument for the simplicity that makes Natasha so attractive to Andrei and Pierre in the previous section. It is possible to love one's life without renouncing civilization, provided the person can find spirituality in simplicity. Nikolai has thus far manifested a less sophisticated version of the conflict that plagues Andrei and Pierre: he is frightened and disgusted by the ways of society, and so retreats to the order of the military, which he sees as somewhat like a game. He cannot find happiness, as reflected by his ever-changing feelings about whom he loves. And yet he finds great joy in the simplicity of singing, dancing and nature, a lesson that Tolstoy seems to support.
Intriguer or not, the way Sonya attracts Nikolai’s attention is unusual and deserves further analysis. For the Melyukovs’ masquerade party, Sonya dresses up as a Circassian soldier, complete with thick eyebrows and a fake mustache. However, she looks more beautiful than ever in this silly, masculine outfit, which inspires Nikolai to fall for her all over again. This isn’t the first time that Tolstoy toys with gender in Sonya and Nikolai’s relationship. At the beginning of the novel, Nikolai is described as pale, delicate, and even frail – all traditionally feminine qualities. His personality reinforces this; he tends to romanticize the military and be swept away by his emotions — for example, during the patriotic toast and when he misses a chance to help the tsar. Fairly or not, dreaminess and vulnerability to emotions were traits commonly associated with women in the nineteenth century.
Likewise, Tolstoy often masculinizes Sonya. He repeatedly emphasizes her lack of sex appeal in comparison with Natasha, even as they are dressing for this party, Sonya reflects sadly on the fact that she will never be as radiant as her younger cousin. Instead of Natasha’s over-the-top femininity, Sonya is characterized by her steadfast fidelity to Nikolai and her tendency to stay cloistered on the Rostov estate. While these qualities aren’t necessarily masculine, they are associated with the monastic lifestyle, which is aggressively asexual.
In this section, Tolstoy continues to critique love and marriage. Compared to the courtships we have seen thus far, the union of Nikolai and Sonya seems superior. Unlike Marya and Anatole, or Vera and Lieutenant Bergg_, money is never a consideration in their relationship. Nor is it especially impulsive, like Natasha’s engagement to Prince Andrei. Although Nikolai rekindles his feelings rather suddenly, he has been in a relationship with Sonya for years and knows her as well as his closer family.
Yet, Tolstoy suggests that Nikolai is only in love “as it seemed to him” (533). He also suggests that the marriage is inauspicious by pointing out the tension it causes in the Rostov family, even among people like Natasha and Count Rostov, who aren’t against the marriage. It is possible to interpret Nikolai's insistence on pursuing Sonya as a type of rebellion against his family and the society they wish to be a part of, and which he has no taste for. In this way, it could be argued to be ironically driven by financial concerns as well. For Tolstoy, all romantic relationships are nerve-wracking commitments fraught with opportunities for failure, especially when they must interact with strict social expectations and attitudes about marriage.

Volume II, Part 5
From Gradesaver
Chapter 1
Both because of his friend Andrei's engagement and because of the vacuous parties his wife throws, Pierre feels he hasn’t accomplished anything meaningful in life. Moreover, he is disturbed by the state of the world, in which people are driven by self-interest. He begins to turn to alcohol and low company to relieve his depression. He also moves alone to Moscow on the advice of a acquaintance who thinks his loose lifestyle might embarrass his wife.

The hunting chapters in this section come as a peaceful interlude

Haha... so peaceful!

Interesting analysis - are they implying that Nikolay might be gay? Would explain his lushness for Sonya's moustache!

It is ambiguous, isn't it SanFranBear?

Nikolai is asserting his independence by proposing to Sonya, although I don't know how they are going to manage financially. Would he have an allowance from the military? It wouldn't be much.

Thank you for the summary for the end of this section, Desdamona. Reading about Rousseau's influence on Tolstoy was interesting. We are moving along nicely. Onwards to Part Five!

Just seen my typo... that should read 'fondness'... not sure where lushness came from?

Chapter 2
Prince Nikolai Bolkonskyy, Princess Marya, Mlle Bouriennee, and baby Prince Nikolai all head to Moscow to prepare for Andrei’s wedding. Marya is miserable. She has no friends and never gets invited anywhere, and she finds that she no longer has much in common with Julie Karaginn_. Prince Nikolai begins to flirt rather seriously with Mlle Bourienne, something that he has joked about in the past. He does this partly because he is senile and partly to spite Marya.

I feel so sorry for Marya.. her existence sounds so miserable. I hope someone visits the house and spirits her away, with the old Prince's permission of course or she'd never go. Perhaps her and Pierre should start hanging out as they're both as miserable as each other!

I agree that Marya and Pierre seem like the perfect couple.

I'm afraid I was tempted to read on today and I did. It was very absorbing!

Chapter 3
The elder Prince Nikolai refuses to cooperate with his doctor. Later, he holds a small name-day party, where the guests discuss politics. It becomes clear that the nobility is becoming dissatisfied with Tsar Alexander and has mixed feelings about the French.

Hello, just caught up on the end of the last section and start of the next. It's interesting the Gradesaver interpretation of Nikolay as feminine as that did occur to me when I was reading his love of Sonya while she was dressed as a man and his earlier worship of the Tsar. I had dismissed it as a modern reading though and wasn't sure that that was what Tolstoy intended. I felt sorry for the old Count and his money problems, Nikolay's debt is never mentioned as exacerbating it. And the Countess was very mean to Sonya, it's never a son that's to blame is it, always the future DIL!
Poor Marya too - I'd love her to end up with Pierre but he seems besotted by Natasha.

I agree. I think Pierre and Marya would be well suited. I thought that Pierre was disenchanted with Hélène however, Stokey.

Chapter 4

Princess Marya is so preoccupied with her deteriorating relationship with her father that she doesn’t notice that Boris Drubetskoyy_ is trying to court her. Pierre warns her that Boris is only interested in money and is also courting Julie Karagin. Marya confides in him her anxieties about Andrei’s marriage and about her own matrimonial prospects.

Chapter 5
Boris genuinely likes and prefers Marya Bolkonsky, but he feels more at ease with Julie Karagin. At twenty-seven, Julie is something of an old maid. Between this and the loss of her brother, she is deeply depressed. Boris tries to relate to her but has trouble because of her melancholy attitude. When he hears that Anatole Kuraginn_ is pursuing Julie, he proposes to her out of a competitive impulse, although he knows he doesn’t love her. She accepts.
Disagree with Gradesaver again here, I don't think Tolstoy implies that Julie is depressed because she's a siblingless, old maid but rather because being melancholic is in vogue. She's a turn of the century Russian Emo! That is until wicked Anatole turns up and tickles her fancy, which in turn forces Boris to ask for her hand in money marriage.

I agree Desdemona. The depression is put on to make her seem more interesting! And it seems to me that Boris embraces the melancholy too - rather than having trouble relating to it.

Agree with you both and actually, I quite like the sound of Julie, the old maid 😄

I was a bit shocked that Boris proposed actually as he clearly doesn't love her, not sure he even really likes her, but at least he's honest that he's after her for her money - and, even better, I think she fully knows this. She'd rather Boris than Anatole as well, I think... its a good match for both really - Julie finally ties the knot even though he's penniless, Boris is set for life at last.

Did make me smile to see Anna M back in action, 'gently' nudging her son in the right direction. He is a chip off the old block, that's for sure!!

I’m with you too Desdemona. Pierre perhaps, but Julie’s is mainly affectation, conscious or not. Impossible not to feel for her as well as Marya in their lack of life choices. Was almost glad of Julie’s poor treatment of Marya a few chapters ago to make her acceptance of Boris feel somewhat just desserts.

Is Gradesaver reading a different book? What a weird interpretation. I wonder if it's done to weed out the students who obviously haven't read the book bu lift that explanation for essays?!

I think Boris trying to show his sensitivity through melancholic poems etc was quite amusing. He is his mother's son, for sure.

It's completely wrong a bit simplistic of Gradesaver to say that.

Boris and his melancholic poems were amusing. I loved the return of Anna M. I missed her nosy interventions.

Just checking into the thread, I’ve just finished Book 2, Part 3. I hadn’t started it at the time I last posted. Have been making good use of the “bookmark” function once thread so have been reading your comments as I go along, so I haven’t read the thread past 9th May. Like @VikingNorthUtsire , I found the beginning few chapters dry and hard to get into, read one at a time, and then flew through the last 10 chapters on ball and courtship in two days. Still don’t feel much liking for Pierre, Andrei winds me up but at least he throws himself into things and actually has an impact before he decides it’s the worst thing ever at the flick of a switch … though that’s not a good thing when it comes to a 16yo heart. Think it’s a bit unfair to call Natasha annoying, she literally views and talks about herself in the male third person, which says it all about the pressure and society lens she is under; she’s a good girl performing up to the expectations put on her. That’s my thoughts after a speed read anyhow.

I did have a translation Q, something that struck me as odd in chapter 3, where it says “All the best moments of his his life suddenly recalled themselves to him at the same time …” and it goes onto include when he near dying on the battlefield, and his wife’s dead reproachful face. I took it as meaning most intense maybe? Or is it really intended to mean best? Would be interested in the words Briggs chose.

Onto part 4… hopefully catch up with you soon in part 5.