The Unconditional Parent -- is this bollocks or for real?

[oregonianabroad]

I haven't read the whole thing yet, but am torn between thinking it is totally revolutionary, and then the next minute I think the guy is smoking crack and wouldn't last 2 minutes with my ds. (of course, he would have an answer for that, another of the things that turns me off about his argument).

It also seems clear that he evaluated all the books on the market and decided to write one with a radically different approach (a discipline book about how not to use rewards/ time outs??? how novel!).

SInce I bought the book on the basis of a few recommendations here, I am interested to hear what you lot think.

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Ive just ordered this on Amazon, having read this thread. So thank you oregonianabroad, franny&zooey and others for bringing this to my attention. My dp and I have been feeling uncomfortable with elements of our parenting of late, particularly in regards to having unrealistic expectations of our dcs, a couple of times it's felt like we were getting cross at them for expresses their perfectly understandable feelings - which is pretty crap imo. We've always had quite a gentle and respectful approach to our relationship with our dcs but we felt we'd lost our way a bit recently. This book sounds really interesting and might give us a different perspective on parenting and how we look at our dc's behaviour.

Sorry that turned into complete waffling on

On or's point often it's just people don't nkow what normal childre are like. Children do throw things around and make a mess. It's just how they are so you haven't failed when they behave like a normal child. I sometimes feel privileged to be up to children numbers 4 and 5 23 years into being a mother. It's as it you are getting more practice when some parents just stop at 1 child and never quite get the experience.

Hi Slur,
Can I also recommend 'How to Talk so Kids Will Listen..., which I have to say, I have found more useful overall.

Cheers oregonianabroad, now I'm sure they have that one in the library - I know you're not just trying to get me to spend the kids xmas pressie money!
Seriously though I have picked that one up before, I never really got it out because I feel like generally mine do listen to me, it's more of a reminder of the fact they're children and allowed to do things differently or even 'childishly' that I'm thinking I need. But put in an eloquent, understandable way that sticks in my frazzled brain.

Thanks Franny and Pitchounette.

I understand that the book doesn't offer any solutions and why. You can't expect a child to behave instantly and have seen from experience that (wearing though it is) the constant patient repeating does work eventually.

But was interested in how YOU behave with YOUR children in line with the books thinking. My kids have loads of choices how to do things, and usually come to brush their teeth when I remind them that holes in their teeth are painful etc but sometimes I feel that rewards is the only way to go.

Eg If DS doesn't want to brush his teeth he will go and hide under a bed. I have ignored him for more than 15 minutes, he still doesn't come out. So my options are: drag him out from under the bed and force the brush into his mouth OR use a reward system. He knows he gets pasta in his pasta jar if he cooperates at teeth brushing time. I would rather say 'don't forget your pasta jar' than use physical force.

I am confident one day he will know all by himself to brush his teeth from my example but it's a question of how to get through the meantime without his teeth rotting? I don't think I could survive parenting without quick fix solutions for these little things?

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Oh god I wouldn't take anything I do as being an Alfie Kohn endorsed method

when ds was little we used to pin him down to brush his teeth - as he was breastfed and used to feed himself to sleep at night I had read this could be quite risky for teeth, and so brushing was absolutely non-negotiable

after a while of pinning he got used to it and does it cheerfully now, but I would have gone on insisting personally

I almost feel being forced in a straightforward way is more honest sometimes, and at least you both know what is going on. Ds and I had a conversation about what 'force' means the other day and I said "we don't force you to do things" (thinking of pinning him down and making him). He said "yes you do!" and gave several examples of things we don't give him any choice about. It's just that now he is older, we do it with words instead of actions - it is worthwhile to stop and think about how we control our children's behaviour and how they are experiencing this control, I think

oh and re: the pasta jar for tooth brushing - if you read Kohn he explains how positive reinforcement methods like this lead to the person being less motivated to perform the task. They perceive it as more unpleasant if they have to be rewarded for doing it, and are less likely to want to do it in future. This goes even for activities that they previously enjoyed - eg, reading books, eating fruit. Reward them for doing it, and their intrinsic motivation will be lessened.

You're right. We are different. I did consider letting him off occasionally but if you do anything ONCE with DS he wants it to become routine. ^

I sometimes don't bother with morning teeth brushing when we are in a hurry (in which case I don't mention it at all so he doesn't even think about it rather than being conscious he is being let off) but I can't do it for nighttime brushing because he would kick up a fuss EVERY time after that!

Anyway, I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about teeth brushing!

No, but tooth brushing is an interesting example of how we all make different choices and do things differently

if a book said "you must brush teeth every day and you must enforce it by x y z" then that would work well for maybe 1 family in 10, and the rest would be thinking "but but but"

I don't think techniques or tips work across the board for every child, or every parent

So for you Franny it is more about reducing the control to the minimum. You accept that as a parent you occasionally have to force your child for his own good. I can live with that!

I see whan Kohn means and certainly avoid this type of reward system for being polite, table manners etc. But teeth brushing and getting dressed (he also gets pasta for that) have never been pleasant for DS!

Am more and more interested in reading the book.

I don't know, tbh, I don't think I have thought it through as clearly as all that

I really liked the book and so much of it made sense to me

I don't like methods such as time out and rewards and I don't think they are respectful or generally helpful, for me (I have used them myself, when losing the plot, or can't see another way forward)

I make other decisions on an individual basis as they come up, I think

I do find Kohn's way of thinking very helpful

oh and 'Punished By Rewards' is the book that is very useful for star charts / praise / rewards / bribes etc

I found that book a less challenging one to start with, personally

Unconditional Parent is quite full on, isn't it?

Yes, I am sure that it makes one a better parent to think things through in this way and be guided by his ideas even if sometimes the practise is different.

I must sign off now, I am at work

I quite like the sound of Kohn and I have always been interested in your methods of parent Franny as I also don't like time out etc. So for a Kohn newbie which of his books would you recommend to start with?

if you are feeling brave - Unconditional Parenting

if you already dislike star charts etc and want to start slowly, try Punished By Rewards

I wish I was able to carry out this philosophy in my real life as easily as I can suggest it to people on here. I think people have a view of me as this perfectly non-manipulating parent and as anyone who knows me in RL will agree, this is not the case. I think awareness and making an attempt at it, can't be all bad though.

I wish Filly was around as she is a great Kohnian parent and often has a better grasp of the principles than I do. I hope Avi posts later as well - I pointed her at the thread.

Thanks Franny, I will look on amazon now.

BTW you're right about the opninion others have of you though and I won't have a word said against you......even from yourself

If you combine Alfie Kohn-type parenting with strong willed children, you end up a screaming harridan, like me!

Ok, I am not in a good place with dd and ds right now, with ds just started walking and competing for my attention and dd really ramping up the attention-seeking behaviour.

But the point is sometimes, your children won't do what you want (whether it is brush teeth, or tidy up toys) and short of forcing the child, it will be a huge effort to coax compliance, which will work only once, because the next time, I meet the same wall of resistance with one trick less.

I think more parents should be able to let their dcs be 'disobedient' without feeling like it is an outrage of parental authority or the start of some slippery slope to Belmarsh. You have done the nagging, the child knows what is expected. No action. Leave it.

With a strong willed child, I have to choose my battles. Dd never brushed her teeth until recently when she turned 4. I have given up so long ago she actually asked to 'practice' doing it. And does it practically every morning now without too much fuss. Previously, you would have thought I was asking her to pull out all her teeth and was impervious to reason.

Naturally, there are some battles which you must fight - in my case car seat - cue arms and legs flailing. And that worked too - Dd now tells me and her baby brother to belt up and if I forget to do her straps, reminds me to.

I try to just trust that with modelling the behaviour you want, they will get there eventually. Of course, they may get there faster with forcing and sreaming, but, erm, that is not a solution for every little thing.

Franny I would echo what you are saying about control - there are some things that are simply non negotiable like cleaning teeth, wearing a coat when its cold etc. If I have time, I play the waiting game and try to follow the Kohn principle on this that if I have won a waiting game, I will allow DTs a bit of slack over the next challenge e.g. it takes 20 mins to get them ready to go out, if they want to play in the garden for 5 mins on way to car, so be it. The more stressed I get the more resistant they become so I try not to equally as cod said a while back, modelling is essential and whenever I hear them saying 'for gods sake' to each other I know I've got to watch my Ps and Qs!

We do alot of negotiating now that they are a bit older (4 next month) e.g. no painting now as we have to go out in 10 mins but we can do some after lunch (rather than'later' which they don't really understand yet)

Yes, modelling your expectation of behaviour is tops.

I'm sad though that you read the book and felt bad about your parenting. It's easier to write a book than to parent! I've looked at this book, and I think it's good for the Long Game.

But sometimes you're just doing crowd control and fighting siblings and that's Short Game stuff.

Trust your instincts. Behave well. Be reasonable, Keep calm.

I bet you're a great parent. And if you pick up one child and sit him on the step and say 'stay there for a minute, and stop chucking everything off the bookshelves' - you know what, that really is okay too! It doesn't mean he thinks you don't love him, not really. It means you are pissed off he keeps throwing books about.

I don't do stickers and steps and stuff. I think it's a bit demeaning. I also think most behaviour comes from something, and that's the instinct thing. So perhaps he threw things about because he was excited or unnerved by the sudden change of routine, or when he was at your friends house he wasn't sure where he was or what to do so he decided to throw stuff.

As a rule, and instinctively, I tend to look at why they're doing what they are doing, rather than instantly reach to punish the behaviour. So ignore the books, pick him up, read him a story, attention. Then say, 'crikey you made a mess! Let's pick it up!' then 'thanks for your help. Try not to do that again, it's boring.'

I say boring a lot as a parent!

100x, That's a good post for the OP

Muckingfuddle, I don't make my DD wear a coat if she doesn't want to. It goes in the bag until she asks for it. Love your name BTW.

otherside - I think my name is a better reflection of my parenting than alfie is

Aha, your cover is blown. Must get back to work but this discussion is more interesting than the stuff I'm translating.