Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell discussion thread - No spoilers until 28 March, please

[CoteDAzur]

A number of us over on 50-Book Challenge thread are interested in reading Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell by 28 March. Everyone is welcome to join in, and feel free to start posting, but please refrain from spoilers until 28 March. Enjoy

The plot definitely ramps up after that Southeast, but tbh if you're not enjoying the writing by the end of Volume I then perhaps it's not for you.

Do we have a transmission date yet? Simultaneously excited and terrified it will be another Gormenghast style fiasco.

Oh yes I remember having to give up on Gormenghast. Was unwatchable. I hope this is the quality of Wolf Hall, which I loved.

Ooh! I really enjoyed this - best YA fiction in the genre I've read in a while, definitely up there with Diana Wynne Jones, in my view. I loved how funny a lot of it was.

I did think it could've been edited down a tiny bit, though? Just me?

YA? Harry Potter is YA. JS & Mr N is for adults.

Southeast - That is practically the beginning of the book. It would be a shame if you give up now, before Stephen's story with TGWTDH starts and JS starts making magic on the battlefield.

Really?!

I just had it down as YA in my head - because it is so similar to Wynne Jones and the way she writes. But I certainly didn't mean that in a bad way. I love YA fiction, and I would have thought it would appeal to people doing P&P at school, in terms of the way it's playing with similar language.

I really love the punctuation. I know that sounds ever so nerdy - but it is so cute!

Actually, now I think, I'm sure I've seen it in the YA section, too. But then, that's quite arbitrary.

If you check Amazon, you'll see its description as a magic book written for adults, as opposed to Harry Potter which (regardless of the inexplicable devotion of its adult fans) remains a series written for children and YA.

Oh, that's interesting - it comes up in YA fiction on Amazon, so I guess it is both. But I think Amazon is mostly a marketing tool anyway, though not sure. It's reminding me that Philip Pullman's stuff is alway seen as 'children's' fiction, and yet plenty of adults enjoy it.

I do agree it's not at all like Harry Potter.

But I wouldn't say it is a book teenagers couldn't enjoy, either. I think if you were just beginning to read classic novels, or if you were doing English Language GCSE or A Level, the different registers would be quite fun. I love the footnotes for that - totally geeky, but brilliant.

"it comes up in YA fiction on Amazon, so I guess it is both."

Sorry to contradict you on this but but no it doesn't and no, it isn't - it is a proper adult book that was longlisted for the Booker Prize in 2004.

"Philip Pullman's stuff is alway seen as 'children's' fiction, and yet plenty of adults enjoy it."

Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials is written for children/YA, and won 1995 Carnegie Medal from the Library Association, a children's book award.

"But I wouldn't say it is a book teenagers couldn't enjoy, either."

That is not what "a book written for adults" means. Teenagers can enjoy books written for adults (although they might not 'get' all, like those who read Anna Karenina and think it is justa love story about a wronged woman) and adults can enjoy YA as light reads. Hunger Games is YA, 1984 is not. Still, teenagers can enjoy 1984 (as I have in the past).

The difference between YA and adult fiction is the depth of issues, complexity of characters, and focus on teenage vs adult concerns & topics of interest.

How odd. It does for me - I searched in YA fiction and it came up straightaway.

But it is nice seeing YA books given proper recognition anyway, I think. The best writers write for everyone - you can enjoy a good children's book as an adult, and good adult fiction will work for bright and interested teenagers, too.

Mind you, I am trying to think why I associate this book particularly with YA fiction, and all I come back to is that lovely sense of fun with language, which seems to me especially right for people who're just getting into classic novels. When I first read it, I immediately thought how much more I'd have enjoyed my GCSEs if someone had let me read it then.

And I don't think there is anything in it that would mean teenagers were shut out. I know some adult novels have themes you really can't appreciate as a teenager, but this isn't like that. There's nothing very deep or philosophical, and the language, though fun, isn't hard. It's really well written in that respect. I think much better written than Hunger Games, and certainly better written than 1984, which is hardly a great work of literature (though it is a brilliant piece of satire).

Ah! I've worked out the confusion - you were searching kindle books. Here you go: www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=node%3D28&field-keywords=jonathan+strange

How is that possible? It is just not in Amazon's 'Teen & Young Adult' category, as you can see in the link I posted below.

"The best writers write for everyone"

I disagree. The best writers take an idea and push it as far as they can, without worrying about whether teenagers can keep up. They don't write for the largest possible audience, making sure never to stray away from the lowest common denominator.

Amazon seems confused.

Click the highlighted bit in my post - that's how I found it.

But it really doesn't matter - as I said, I think Amazon really just uses them as a marketing tool. They're not formal categories in any way.

I know what you mean about the best writers. I do think that's true. But I'm not sure teenagers are the 'lowest common denominator'. After all, if you think about it, there are plenty of books written for adults, which are not deep reading, but which you wouldn't give to your teenager.

There are also books that are adult because they are simply more complex than most teenagers could manage. This isn't one of those: it is quite immediately accessible.

And then, there are books that are very complex, but which have so much depth that a teenager can enjoy them, and then come back to them later, and get more out of them. I think lots of very good books are like this. You wouldn't want to read them just once or twice. You'd want to keep coming back to them, and you would get more out of them each time.

Cross post.

No doubt that's it - Amazon is confused!

But seriously - I think that is where the root of the confusion lies. Amazon markets things as it thinks most people will buy them. It's not a serious assessment of anything, so I think this could very easily fit whatever category we like.

I think the confusion is because Cote is on the British Amazon and Jeanne is on the American one.

Oh, thank you! That will be it.

Dare I speculate whether US teenagers are more sophisticated?!

"I'm not sure teenagers are the 'lowest common denominator'"

Good, you shouldn't be. That is not what 'lowest common denominator' means.

Lowest common denominator in this context is the views, interests, tastes that all or most people share, ideas that everyone can get their heads around. Like a mother's love for her children or sympathy for the underdog. Authors who base their stories on these write stuff like 1000 Splendid Suns, so that readers of all ages and intellectual capacity shed a tear and wallow in their sympathy for the suffering women.

Imho the best authors write books that they would like to read, not what the entire world between the ages of 12 and 90 would like to read.

Oh ... so, why did you bring teenagers into it? 'Lowest common denominator' was your term, not mine. I argued that good YA fiction is good for all, and you replied with that phrase.

I do think it is not an accurate one. And I do think you need to be careful about assuming that YA fiction has any relation to a 'lowest common denominator'.

It is interesting to think what makes the best fiction, though, and I do agree that texts like this help show that up - by showing the difference between 'quite good' and 'best', I suppose?

"I argued that good YA fiction is good for all, and you replied with that phrase."

No, I replied to your sentence: "The best writers write for everyone".

To write for everyone means, by definition, writing to/about the least common denominator - what everyone cares about, thoughts/feelings common to all of us.

Ah, no.

The best writers do write for everyone, but that's not writing for the 'lowest common denominator'. That's writing well.

Basically, if you read a great book aged 12 or 15, you might enjoy it and get a lot out of it, even if you don't get everything. But, ten or twenty or forty years later, you might re-read it and find it means more to you.

You see, what matters to people changes as they age. It's natural, isn't it?

Obviously, this book isn't in that category, but that doesn't mean it's not good, and it certainly doesn't mean teenagers couldn't enjoy it.

"The best writers do write for everyone, but that's not writing for the 'lowest common denominator'. "

I don't see how you can disagree. Writing for everyone by definition means writing about stuff that everyone cares about and is interested in. What a teenager as well as a 60-year-old can relate to = lowest common denominator. It is not a derogatory term.

And no, good YA isn't good for everyone. Some of us don't enjoy YA at all, regardless of how 'good' they are said to be.

Anyway, we digress and derail the thread.

I think you will enjoy YA if you give it a go - if you enjoy this, you are the perfect audience. But no, that's not what the term means. It is originally from maths - it doesn't actually mean what everyone cares about. In maths, the lowest common denominator doesn't mean something that applies to everyone - it refers to the set of parameters within which something is 'lowest'. So, it's perfectly possible to have a lowest common denominator that doesn't include everyone.

It's nothing to do with being derogatory - and I do agree that YA fiction certainly isn't a derogatory term!

But I think this is excellent YA fic. I think it is also a coming-of-age novel, isn't it? Because you could see the idea of magic as being to do with growing up, and learning not to take what you've been told as gospel when there is hard evidence to assess?

I think not and LOL @ "you're the perfect audience" I have been tricked into reading YA by friends who insisted "But this one is really good!" or book descriptions that don't mention that it is YA and more recently struggled through The Book Thief, Let The Right One In, The Girl With All The Gifts, and Delirium. Found them all very annoying in their superficiality and dumbed-down simplicity.

I am well aware of what lowest common denominator means in its original mathematical context, having studied mathematics at a graduate (master's) level. This is what it means in a non-mathematical context. See examples here, here, and especially here, where it is used in a literary context, exactly as I have below.

JS Mr N isn't a coming-of-age novel either, since all characters are adults at the beginning of the book as at its end, and none come-of-age during the book.

Let's end this here because we have digressed & dominated the thread, but come over to 50-Books Challenge if you like discussing books & genres.