Just a note re "I did x and mine are fine"

[hunkermunker]

If the children to whom you refer aren't 85 (at least), it's not all that bright a statement.

That's all.

OK, x is childhood diabetes, y is obesity and z is gastroenteritis.

Well, in that case, I agree with you

Hunker I respect you, your BF advice site and your views enormously.

I think I feel as strongly about BF as you do.

Please check out the links to vaccines.

There has to be more to this than infant feeding.

I stuck to all the rules (gladly) and still ended up with a kid who is highly allergic to a hugely wide range of foodstuffs.

BC, thank you very much indeed.

There is a lot we still don't know - I will do some more reading about vaccinations.

Do doctors you've seen suggest you should've ff rather than bf?

Thread hijack

Hi Beachcomber, been lurking and off to bed but just to throw in my two penneth - I bfeed my 19 mth DS, he is still highly allergic but not vaccinated at all as I completely agree with you that there is more to it than just bfeeding.

I think we need to be looking also at environmental factors, such as the amount of chemicals that it is now thought come through breastmilk as well. Then add to that cocktail, any of the mothers inherited alleriges / intolerances, then vaccinations, then the carpeted / centrally heated environment we live in and I think we have a bit of a recipe for disaster. You might want to check out the book 'Whats in this stuff' by Pat Thomas, it's really an eye opener & I thinkk you would find it interesting.

I tyhink all we can do is what we feel is best for our babies but agree with HM thread that 'I did it so it's fine' is a bit of a useless comment really.

Hijack over !

Beachcomber, i stuck to all the rules as well and still ended up with a highly allergic child.

The thing is, if there are environmental chemicals that pass through milk, presumably they will be present in cows' milk too, hence formula.

Nobody has ever said b/f is a 100 per cent guarantee against allergies - it merely lowers the risk in a population of babies.

Sadly there isn't anything that can automatically stop a child developing allergies. The question is, why has the number of people with allergies exploded over the last 40 years? No-one yet has an answer. Declining rates/duration of b/f may be one important factor.

(lowers the risk as far as we know in infancy and early childhood - no research yet to prove an effect in later life.)

Puffylovett, I'll have a look at that book, sounds interesting thanks.

I agree with you that there are no doubt many factors at play here.

Interesting to hear of your unvaccinated DS having allergies. I'm sorry to hear that and hope things improve over the future for him.

trixymalixy, it's just crap isn't? So much worrying.

Thanks for listening Hunker. We saw A LOT of doctors with DD as it took a while to find out what was going on with her.

The majority thought I should stop BF but mainly because they thought I would never stick to the exclusion diet. It was pretty hardcore; no wheat, gluten, eggs, dairy, fish, beef, pork, refined sugar, soya, nuts, citrus, tomatoes, potatoes and a whole load of other fruit and veg. I ate a lot of rice, lamb, quinoa, pears and cabbage (all considered low risk).

None of them ever suggested that I stop BF for any reason other than food proteins passing through my milk and through DD's damaged gut and thereby sensitising her.

None of them had any explanation for why her gut was in such a state and her immune system so hyperactive. I heard the word 'genetic' a lot but the science isn't there to back this up. There is no doubt a genetic susceptibility but it can only be one of many factors. Neither DH nor myself have any food allergies, there are none on either family side. My sister has mild hayfever. Genetics alone cannot explain the huge increase in allergic disease.

Our current allergist did suggest that it would be best if I could keep feeding for all round health reasons and because elements of breast milk would help to heal DD's gut. She was also worried that DD would react to the hypoallergenic formulas and that we would be left with nothing to feed her. She was so thin and sick and fragile that I felt the only thing keeping her going was my nourishment. I did see one doctor who tried to suggest that she was so ill because there was something 'wrong' with my milk (he had NO explanation for why this might be nor science to back this dangerous idea up). Didn't hang around with him for long.

Anyway I wanted to feed her and had no qualms about following the diet (even though it sucked sometimes) in order to do so. I used to cook in a vegan restaurant so knew my way around lots of different foods.

The only doctor to actually come out and say that it was certainly her DTP which sent her immune system into this spiral was an English doctor of environmental medicine. He was most helpful and gave us lots of free advice and encouraged me to find out for myself on the internet. However both our allergist and our GP agree that DD1 won't be having any more vaccines and both readily agreed that we don't vaccinate DD2 (vaccination is mandatory in France for creche/school entry).

twoshoes: did you really report my post because it suggested another contributor was ill-informed and should therefore be treated with caution? And you did this because you wanted information?

How very silly.

Don't do it again, please, willya?

sounds like you've been through the mill, beachcomber.

i think what i'll do is follow my instinct (ho ho, how many times have i advised myself not to do that?) and wait awhile. i'd already put off dd's one anyway out of sheer 'SHE'S TOOOOOO SMAAAAAALLL for chemicals' panic.

am i being silly to think i'll eat a good bit of lamb, rice and cabbage around the time she does get the jag? is that too simplistic? what other low-risk foods are there if not?

I don't understand why the same 'debate' goes on and on and on. The guidelines say 'don't wean until 6 months'. Some people ignore the guidelines. What a few people say on MN is unlikely to change that, surely?

lord i do loathe the snorers and yawners... conversations move on, people confess their fears, expose their stories and those of their children in order to try to help others and yet some terrific wag comes along to give her opinion. (cos that's the thing about the snorers... gotta let us know they're bored. can't click off the thread and think 'gosh i really wasn't interested in that'. oh no, gotta be simultaneously bored by a thread and involved in it.)

I'll pop back in later and post some links that might be of interest for anyone wanting to take a closer look at all this.

It is hard to find information about this and much of what is of interest has been made available to the public on sites which are quite critical of vaccines.

A lot of folks see these sorts of websites as being "antivaccination" and rather dubious. No doubt there are some which are these things.

However there are a lot of people who, like me, vaccinated their kids as a matter of course and only began to question vaccines when things went wrong. To describe such people as 'antivaccine' is patently ridiculous considering that they vaccinated their kids. Some of these people have become active in trying to help parents make an informed choice, they want to help, they have no other agenda. The JABS website which is pretty well known is one such example.

Anyway all that just to say that the easiest way for me to access info and post links is often through such websites and I know some people are suspicious of them. These websites generally try to post as much actual science as possible so that people can read and interpret the research for themselves.

One such site that has collected some science on anaphylaxis is this one;

www.vran.org/vaccines/anaphylaxis/ana-vac.htm

This page on the same site gathers some of the research into a possible vaccine/allergy link;

www.vran.org/vaccines/anaphylaxis/vaccine-ana.htm

if there's anything on prems and vax i'd be glad to see it, beachcomber, thanks.

Beachcomber I think you're very brave bringing this subject up, I find it far too daunting a debate to get into, despite having very strong beliefs & having read much of the same research as you ! I think it's great that you're putting yourself out there to help other mums make a decision / form an opinion.

thing is, though, puff, that the info is so kind of, well... dogmatic that you do think . i vax'd dd1, she was fine, (lololol in light of thread) but i know that's no guarantee wrt dd2, particularly given her early entry into the increasingly toxic world. i will still vax though, no doubt, i'm more interested in timings. i gave dd1 her mmr nearer 2 than 1, just cos by that time she seemed hefty and healthy enough in my mind.

i take it that dd2, at not even 6lbs, would get the same dose of her first vax as a child of a much larger birthweight? that seems counter-intuitive to me for a start.

It has been a bit grim Poppycock. DD1 is five years old now and is in MUCH better health. We kind of went out on a limb and ignored most of the doctors and nursed her oursleves, our way. Most doctors wanted to put her on steriods and antihistamines (at 4 months old) rather then really try to find out what was wrong with her.

Anyway, concerning your DD, I'm not too sure what to say. I am not a medical professional and am absolutely not qualified to give advice. This is a really personal issue and each parent has to live with their choice and try their hardest to make sure that it is the right one for their child.

I would only suggest that you take your time to find out as much as you can from independent sources. Unfortunately your doctor is not an independent source.

I posted a link to a book that is a good place to start earlier in the tread, I'll repeat it here for you. This book is by a GP so is from a mainstream source.

www.amazon.co.uk/Truth-About-Vaccines-Without-Knowing/dp/1903933927/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1 225099753&sr=1-1

It is quite possible that you are correct that eating 'low risk' foods is a good idea around vaccination time. Generally considered to be low risk are; rice, lamb, pears, quinoa, grapes, dates, cabbage, broccoli, leeks and oats (oats do contain gluten though). I honestly don't know what the outcome of such a precaution might be. I've never seen any research into this. I do know that the critical period of gut permeability after DTP vaccination is considered to be up to six weeks.

One thing to consider is that although the above foods are considered low risk, people can become allergic to anything. I suppose it is entirely possible that a susceptible child would become sensitised to the low risk foods. I really don't know.

Certainly I wouldn't be in a hurry to vaccinate a low birth weight prem baby. My DD1 was low birthweight and came early, I know these are risk factors for adverse reaction. The DTP my DD reacted to is no longer used, now it is the DTaP which is considered to be less reactive. However, I am cautious of any combined vaccine personally.

'Tis a minefield.

Gnaaah! way back in the thread...

"I couldn't be bothered with formula, I'm far too lazy"

This winds me up no end. I didn't start FFing cos I wanted extra work for myself. BFing fell apart for various reasons (and I WANTED to BF) at 2 months and I ended up FFing. I would have loved to have been able to be "lazy" and continue BFing. This comment always makes me feel that I am a control freak mum who stopped BFing so she could sterilise bottles all day. Pleeeease stop saying it, it sounds so smug.

Sorry, hijack over.

Yes poppycock, you are quite right that the dose is the same regardless of the weight or age of the child (or adult come to that matter). A lot of people who question vaccine safety are concerned with this issue and the wisdom of a "one size fits all" approach to vaccine dosage and schedule.

I think you are being very wise to consider vaccinating later.

Earlier on in the thread there was a link to a study that suggested that by delaying DTP vaccination till four months risk of asthma (an allergic disease) was halved.

Here is the link again;

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1079259/A-vaccine-given-babies-increase-risk-childhood-asthma.htm l

Thanks puffylovett!

I agree that it is a daunting subject. Quite often I don't get involved if i don't think there is any point. Vaccination is very emotive. I speak out when I think people are open to the subject because I really really care about this and I know that the science is there.

I think it the light of emerging research and particularly what is happening in the US with the Autism Omnibus (Hannah Poling's case) at the Vaccine Court the climate is going to have to change.

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