11 year old pescatarian wants to go vegan

[Chingchok]

Hi all

Having decided to stop eating meat at age 9, my son now wants to stop eating fish and dairy. He has never been able to eat eggs because of allergy, but now he has switched to oat or almond milk, and doesn’t want to eat fish anymore.

We support him, however I feel really torn and anxious about his nutrition. He already has an iron deficiency (he was always on the edge of it before stopping meat), vit D deficiency and he has suspected ADHD. I’ve tried vegan fish oils (Nothing Fishy) which are almost impossible to get him to take. He takes an iron supplement and vitamin D but I also worry about b12, EFAs…

A lot of vegan ready-made foods are relatively processed, and we are both allergic to several preservatives, so I make almost everything myself. Nut cheese, chickpea tofu, miso, a wide varieties of lentils, beans, nut butters and seed dips and oils. We almost completely stopped eating meat when he did, and so I already cooked 90 per cent vegetarian foods at home. When he has to eat out, ie on a school trip, fish has often been the only option available to him.

Oh and his school is nut-free. So no almond milk, cashew nut cheese.

I would really welcome concrete advice on how to make this switch, how to make sure he gets enough of specific nutrients, how not to spend my entire life in the kitchen…

Thank you in advance for sharing your experiences!

@WaltzingBetty
I was talking about human rights. Are you aware what's involved in cashew nut harvesting? I wasn't talking about greenhouse gases and I never mentioned dairy farming. Personally, I think oat milk is the best choice, but apparently you've made some assumptions about me.
Probably best to read posts properly before replying, or you'll make yourself look foolish.

@WaltzingBetty

Also you're assuming that no non-vegans consume cashews or almonds?

I'm not, I'm just pointing out the disconnect between vegans who claim to care about animals and the planet but eat cashews and almonds.

What's your problem with what I said? Do you own a cashew nut plantation or do you just have no idea what's involved in harvesting them?

@WaltzingBetty

Avocado is absolutely dreadful for the environment *@superstripeysocks* No one has suggested it isn't. It's also heavily consumed by omnivores as described in the post you quoted. What's your point?

"heavily consumed" - one poster said her DH eats it

At 11 I might allow him to be vegetarian but not vegan. It would be a great concern if he is unhealthy because he is lacking vital nutrients. Id be tempted to say eat what you like but shop and cook it yourself. And hope he would get bored after a day or two.

Everyone saying you shouldn't accommodate...

You can't force people who don't want to eat meat or dairy for ethical reasons to eat meat . That's horrible.

I haven't read all the comments here but I'm surprised at the view that a vegan diet is extreme or that the choice to go vegan is unreasonable. My two children have gradually gone from carnivorous to pescetarian to vegetarian and would now like to be fully vegan. They are clear on their reasons for this (animal welfare). We have spoken about the fact that they need to accept responsibility for their nutrition and can't just eat beyond burgers and quorn ham for every meal. They have accepted this and we are gradually shifting away from dairy - we now drink oat milk and oat Yoghurt but they still eat cheese on occasion. We make curries and bolognaise with lentils and also include a lot of tofu and jackfruit, all of which they enjoy. We give them nuts and dried fruits for snacks and well as lots of fresh fruit and veg. Obviously they also eat a bit of junk too - sweets, crisps, beyond burgers, vegan nuggets etc.
I think if I were you I would want to have an agreement with your son about his responsibilities when it comes to his diet, which might include taking vitamins, including a variety of sources of iron and protein etc. For what it's worth - my boys are slightly younger than yours and I think their generation will grow up much more open to vegan foods and will look back on the diets of previous generations with horror.

@Viviennemary

At 11 I might allow him to be vegetarian but not vegan. It would be a great concern if he is unhealthy because he is lacking vital nutrients. Id be tempted to say eat what you like but shop and cook it yourself. And hope he would get bored after a day or two.

But that’s because on every thread I’ve seen you on, you come across as very intolerant to anyone who doesn’t share your views, @Viviennemary.

And any diet can be lacking in vital nutrients, it’s not the exclusive preserve of diets with a different protein source to meat and fish.

@Viviennemary

At 11 I might allow him to be vegetarian but not vegan. It would be a great concern if he is unhealthy because he is lacking vital nutrients. Id be tempted to say eat what you like but shop and cook it yourself. And hope he would get bored after a day or two.

Child may well point blank refuse to eat non vegan food. Which is completely their right. I can't believe the amount of unsupportive parents. Poor kids.

@MenimeMay

Everyone saying you shouldn't accommodate...

You can't force people who don't want to eat meat or dairy for ethical reasons to eat meat . That's horrible.

This. It's quite frankly disgusting.

This. It's quite frankly disgusting.

I'm quite shocked that people think it's OK to force a child to eat dead animals or by-products of animals when the child has an ethical problem with it. And I use "dead animals" because if a child has stated they don't like that e.g. meat comes from animals, that's likely what they think of it as. Or if they believe we shouldn't farm animals for milk because they know how they occurs, of for eggs etc etc, for leather...

It's disturbing that some parents think this way and the amount of misinformation regarding the vegan diet is astounding. I'm not even vegan!!

I really hope these children tell someone at school if their parents are forcing them to eat food against their beliefs.

At 11 I might allow him to be vegetarian

At 11, you might allow...

So pre-11, if your child refused to eat meat, you would keep serving them meat and risk them becoming malnourished through your own lack of support?

@MenimeMay

This. It's quite frankly disgusting.

I'm quite shocked that people think it's OK to force a child to eat dead animals or by-products of animals when the child has an ethical problem with it. And I use "dead animals" because if a child has stated they don't like that e.g. meat comes from animals, that's likely what they think of it as. Or if they believe we shouldn't farm animals for milk because they know how they occurs, of for eggs etc etc, for leather...

It's disturbing that some parents think this way and the amount of misinformation regarding the vegan diet is astounding. I'm not even vegan!!

I really hope these children tell someone at school if their parents are forcing them to eat food against their beliefs.

I'm vegan. Haven't always been so my kids and DP aren't. My DC have always been told where and what their food is and my ds7 has decided he wants to be veggie now. My brother and SIL have raised their 3 daughters vegan and they are a picture of health.

They could eat what was available that wasnt meat. I wouldn't cook separate meals. Life is hard enough.

@Viviennemary

They could eat what was available that wasnt meat. I wouldn't cook separate meals. Life is hard enough.

Wow. Your poor kids. I thought you were worried about them not getting what they needed from their diet? So in your house they would have to go against their beliefs or not eat to get all they need from their diet?

You need to see a registered paediatric dietician. Your ds is making himself ill with his severely restrictive diet. He doesn’t know enough about nutrition to ensure a balanced diet. He’ll be going through puberty soon and malnutrition can affect his cognitive and physical development.

OP join a vegan FB group for ideas. Don't listen to half the waffle on here.

As a lifelong vegetarian who went vegan age 13/14, I am just laughing imagining my meat-eating mum trying to force me to eat animal products - I was far too much of a stubborn cow for that!

Luckily my mum is relatively clued/up on nutrition so that was no problem. There weren't many vegan products available in shops when I was young, but even when I was just a vegetarian my mum would have never spent money on fake meat products. She just gave me a very cheap whole-food diet.

In terms of extra cooking, it probably helped that due to my mum's (very much layman's) interest in nutrition and the fact that meat is more expensive than vegetables, she didn't ever eat meat more than twice a week anyway.

I'm worried that your son already has deficiencies though, OP. I think maybe this ought be investigated by your doctor.

Just wanted to say that my son is

• not ill
• not underweight
• his vitamin D deficiency was only discovered BECAUSE WE TESTED HIM.

Many people have correctly said that meat eaters can often have deficiencies, but would you necessarily go and test your kids if they have no symptoms?

If only 10 per cent of vit D is obtained from food, then there are many other risk factors, including living in the U.K. in the winter months.

Also, I have been talking about it with a few friends here and they also have vitamin D deficiency. They eat meat but also work in offices for long hours and don’t get much time outdoors in daylight. So I looked it up, and D deficiency is surprisingly common here, maybe because “ City smog and pollution in Bangkok, for example, can obstruct UVB by 60%." We also dodge the sun and cover up, like most Thais. So we need to find that balance between not getting sunburn, and getting enough vitamin D.

Diet is clearly part of the picture here. But it isn’t the whole picture.

@minatrina

As a lifelong vegetarian who went vegan age 13/14, I am just laughing imagining my meat-eating mum trying to force me to eat animal products - I was far too much of a stubborn cow for that!

Luckily my mum is relatively clued/up on nutrition so that was no problem. There weren't many vegan products available in shops when I was young, but even when I was just a vegetarian my mum would have never spent money on fake meat products. She just gave me a very cheap whole-food diet.

In terms of extra cooking, it probably helped that due to my mum's (very much layman's) interest in nutrition and the fact that meat is more expensive than vegetables, she didn't ever eat meat more than twice a week anyway.

I'm worried that your son already has deficiencies though, OP. I think maybe this ought be investigated by your doctor.

Yes it made me laugh too. My son would rather die than eat meat. There’s no way we could force him. And yes, he used to absolutely love it!

But TBH I’ve heard far worse. People get really, really wound up about kids not eating animals. About kids “controlling” their parents.

We stopped drinking 3 years ago and that’s surprisingly controversial, too! Even if you don’t try to influence others with your choices, I think people suspect they are being judged. And it really isn’t the case….

Good on you for coming here and enquiring about micronutrients.

You will need to supplement. Yes, food is often fortified, which means they supplement the food. Don't rely on the supplement given to the food, supplement directly. That food has been on the shelf for a long time and you don't know the quality of the supplement added.

• 1000ug B12 every 2 days
• Vitamin D 1000iu / day
• Algae based EPA-DHA - don't just look for omega 3, you need EPA-DHA, not ALA
• iodine if not eating a lot of algae.
• probably iron. You can also buy the lucky iron fish and use it for cooking.
• 1 Brazil nut per day for selenium

Brenda Davis' book " becoming vegan" will cover the nutrition you need to understand how to source your nutrients in food, which are good and not so good. An example, spinach, great calcium content on paper, too bad the body can't absorb it because of its oxalate content, so you need kale or broccoli.

Use cronometer.com to record the daily nutritional content and get a sense of which nutrient you are missing. It is actually quite hard to hit all of them, so you will probably need to add a multivitamin from time to time. I take Thorne Basic, it is 2 pills, but I usually take only 1 if my day was good.

You can be incredibly healthy on a whole food plant based vegan diet or extremely unhealthy on a vegan 5--shades-of -beige and frankenfood diet. A processed vegan diet is probably worse than a healthy omnivore.

Have a blood test in 6 months to check for deficiencies ( which could be already present and unrelated to vegan diet) and also test his omega 3 index. Omegaquant is by far the best to test that. It is a private test, NHS won't test for it. Nutrition content in a food, and the ability of the body to extract and use it are two different things. Even with the perfect diet, there are many reasons why someone might be low or high in one micronutrient or the other.

Funny how everyone is so worried about deficiencies in vegan children while happily giving daily crisps, chicken nuggets and cheerios to their kids. I don't play food police with them, don't play food police with us.

@Chingchok

Just wanted to say that my son is

• not ill
• not underweight
• his vitamin D deficiency was only discovered BECAUSE WE TESTED HIM.

Many people have correctly said that meat eaters can often have deficiencies, but would you necessarily go and test your kids if they have no symptoms?

If only 10 per cent of vit D is obtained from food, then there are many other risk factors, including living in the U.K. in the winter months.

Also, I have been talking about it with a few friends here and they also have vitamin D deficiency. They eat meat but also work in offices for long hours and don’t get much time outdoors in daylight. So I looked it up, and D deficiency is surprisingly common here, maybe because “ City smog and pollution in Bangkok, for example, can obstruct UVB by 60%." We also dodge the sun and cover up, like most Thais. So we need to find that balance between not getting sunburn, and getting enough vitamin D.

Diet is clearly part of the picture here. But it isn’t the whole picture.

Yep! Vitamin D deficiency is so common.

Again this is obviously best discussed with a doctor, but anecdotally I have two different family members (who eat regular omnivorous diets) who have chronic vitamin deficiencies because their body just doesn't absorb certain nutrients for various reasons. One of them takes super high-strength supplements, and the other has some sort of treatment which treats the underlying cause of the deficiency so they can absorb the vitamin in question better. It's always worth getting this sort of thing looked at I think, but well done you OP for getting your son's vitamin levels checked just as a matter of course - I'm so surprised that more people don't do this, even just as a one-off as it can help explain and identify so many problems!

How did you discover he was iron deficient op?

I read your updates. If you’re not concerned about him getting his nutrients, then why did you post here? Your later posts contradict your concerns in the op.

What does he eat in a day? Oat and almond milk aren’t the most nutritious for a developing boy. Soya will probably be best. Contrary to western beliefs, soya isn’t “bad” for you. East Asians eat and drink soya all the time and they’re some of the healthiest (as in less illnesses and not fat), longest living people on the planet. I’m dairy free due to an allergy.

www.sanitarium.com.au/health-nutrition/nutrition/can-you-give-soy-oat-or-almond-milk-to-children

www.srnutrition.co.uk/2020/01/comparing-plant-based-milk-alternatives-for-children/

www.verywellfamily.com/non-dairy-milks-and-child-development-4143265

@Cormoran

Good on you for coming here and enquiring about micronutrients.

You will need to supplement. Yes, food is often fortified, which means they supplement the food. Don't rely on the supplement given to the food, supplement directly. That food has been on the shelf for a long time and you don't know the quality of the supplement added.

• 1000ug B12 every 2 days
• Vitamin D 1000iu / day
• Algae based EPA-DHA - don't just look for omega 3, you need EPA-DHA, not ALA
• iodine if not eating a lot of algae.
• probably iron. You can also buy the lucky iron fish and use it for cooking.
• 1 Brazil nut per day for selenium

Brenda Davis' book " becoming vegan" will cover the nutrition you need to understand how to source your nutrients in food, which are good and not so good. An example, spinach, great calcium content on paper, too bad the body can't absorb it because of its oxalate content, so you need kale or broccoli.

Use cronometer.com to record the daily nutritional content and get a sense of which nutrient you are missing. It is actually quite hard to hit all of them, so you will probably need to add a multivitamin from time to time. I take Thorne Basic, it is 2 pills, but I usually take only 1 if my day was good.

You can be incredibly healthy on a whole food plant based vegan diet or extremely unhealthy on a vegan 5--shades-of -beige and frankenfood diet. A processed vegan diet is probably worse than a healthy omnivore.

Have a blood test in 6 months to check for deficiencies ( which could be already present and unrelated to vegan diet) and also test his omega 3 index. Omegaquant is by far the best to test that. It is a private test, NHS won't test for it. Nutrition content in a food, and the ability of the body to extract and use it are two different things. Even with the perfect diet, there are many reasons why someone might be low or high in one micronutrient or the other.

Funny how everyone is so worried about deficiencies in vegan children while happily giving daily crisps, chicken nuggets and cheerios to their kids. I don't play food police with them, don't play food police with us.

Thank you for this detailed and specific post, it is really useful. I’m going to schedule more tests as he actually hasn’t been tested since our lockdown began earlier this year, and we spent the summer in the U.K. - plenty of outdoor time and a variety of foods.

Agree with you on the beige foods. My son loves vegetables and eats a lot of greens, oranges and purples. I guess it’s just that I am new to véganism hence the worries, And listening to the opinions of others and doubting myself.

@Oftenithinkaboutit

How did you discover he was iron deficient op?

Tested him as he was a bit pale and had dark shadows, and I had a history of it despite eating meat. That was before we knew about his allergies, which also cause “purple eyes”