Northern Ireland

[pavillion1]

Can someone explain to me what is going on in Northern Ireland? As Simply as possible.

Indeed. It has long been my opinion that NI was no different to apartheid South Africa, but was given a twee name like the Troubles because we couldn't possibly %have a civil war in these islands. There wasn't a lot that happened in Belfast in the 70s that couldn't have been in Johannesburg.

People don't realise the similarity to SA because it's easy to tell the difference between a white person and a black person and it's not as easy to tell the difference between a catholic and a protestant.

Oh there's no doubt in my mind it was a civil war. The endless bloodshed was a huge feature of the news in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Not unlike the endless bloodshed in the Middle East or in Ukraine is reported daily now.
I don't think people who were born since realise how close that war felt and how much many people felt that we on the mainland of Britain were involved. At war in fact.
In a way - I hope this doesn't offend anyone- I feel that the UK was Russia to Northern Ireland's Ukraine. I speak as an English person. Many of whom desperately wanted us to not have troops in NI carrying out what we saw as atrocities in our name.
This is my memory. There were also of course people who saw Irish Nationalists as the troublemakers but despite being horrified by the bloodshed my sympathies were always instinctively on the side of the Catholics, as the underdogs and with the history of Britain's oppression of Ireland and the partition.

Some time ago, an English caller on an Irish radio show suggested that the rest of the UK should have a vote on giving NI back to the Republic of Ireland……
Obviously, I think that we all now know that it’s more complex than a yes/no vote (see Brexit), but it’s a fair point.

I don't think it's a fair point.
I think it's akin to giving Russians a vote on whether to 'give' Crimea or the Donbas 'back' to Ukraine. Not a perfect parallel I know, but not dissimilar.

I think it is. It entirely depends which side you are on. In the case of the majority of GB they have very little interest in NI, there's a whole generation of voters who grew up after the GFA and have little knowledge of the history.
Also economically NI is subsidised by the rest of the UK.
I think there would be a strong vote in favour of "giving" it to RoI. Whether they would want it is another matter.

BBC Usually does helpful explainers on stuff like this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c7908wzvnzno?app-referrer=deep-link

@LondonLass61 @BareGrylls
It’s not a fair point.

The people of Great Britain are not eligible to vote on the subject of a United Ireland.
They couldn’t decide to ‘give’ NI to ROI even if they wanted to.

As the Good Friday Agreement specifies, a United Ireland will depend solely on the consent of the people of Northern Ireland and the people of Ireland (ROI).

I think the caller on the radio show embarrassed themselves!

Truly it is the last thing we need. All the band needed to do was say they appreciate that it was granted but they wouldn't parade out of respect for the community of that area.
I'm from Northern Ireland and currently it is the most dangerous country in Europe to be a woman because more women have been murdered by their partners and male family members than any other country in Europe and this is what we should all be focusing on right now.

I wondered if it was anything to do with Trump's comments and the unionists wanting to make the point that not everyone in NI wants unity.

Yes I wondered about the Trump comments too. There's definitely someone at a higher level pulling strings behind the scenes, having decided to cause this chaos.

I really think we are moving from Putin being the agent of chaos to Trump joining in - there seems no historical dispute he won’t stir up for his own reasons. Falklands, Greenland, NI, and all the rest. What the long game is (if there even is one) is beyond me. Maybe world instability makes USA look stable?

Truly it is the last thing we need. All the band needed to do was say they appreciate that it was granted but they wouldn't parade out of respect for the community of that area.

But that was never going to happen. It was the OO pushing for the parade.

The goalless draw with Hungary? I thought NI played well. They might have lost it at the end, but a draw was a creditable result.

Ah good old NI. This kind of shit is the reason I got the hell out of there as soon as I could. Unfortunately, my family are still there, and my mum always says that everything is different now, and it has come a long way since the days of the Troubles (I left in 1991). When I go back though I can see that things have improved a lot since the bad old days, but the sectarianism is still bubbling away, breaking out from under the surface every now and again. It may be a beautiful country, but I am glad I got away. Whoever approved this march should be shot sacked (jk!) , no need to stir all this up again. FWIW I used to live about ten minutes from the Quinn brother's house, we nearly moved into that estate when I was a child, until someone told my mum it was where they put all the single mothers (my mum was a single mother). Although I had long since moved away when the tragedy happened it had a deep and lasting effect, including being a positive influence on stopping the Drumcree marches back then. It would be a crying shame to have that positive decision overturned. Its almost as if the powers that be want it all to kick off again!

im a catholic Scot from west coast. When I was growing up in the 90s there would be orange marches every year up and down the housing scheme. It felt like intimidation then.

There was a feeling of ‘stay away’. Even as a small child I would be called ‘fenian ’ in the street. This is Scotland.

Me and my dear mammy went to visit Northern Ireland where her own mum originated. She was horrified to find the flags up in pretty much every town we went through and said her mum would be turning in her grave. I think she described it as a ‘tinderbox’ and I can see her point

Except that this is a United Kindom: Northern Ireland is not owned by the mainland it is supposed to be an equal partner in the Kingdom. What we don't own, we can't give away, nor do we have the right to. To even ask the question is to behave imperialistically.

i am old enough to remember the 70’s and 80’s NI and the impact the conflict had in England as I was growing up. I worked with two women with Irish parents who were threatened by an anonymous phone call to them at work and escorted home from work by police due to tensions over an IRA bombing. i’ve visited northern ireland maybe about 5 times since about 2014. i have a friend who lives there who is catholic and staunchly republican (refuses to have a british passport). we chat about how things are politically because i’m keen to understand. she is pretty balanced in my view and it’s interesting listening to hers and her families views. i’ve generally always felt safe in NI. but this last visit i felt the tension in the air. even though the Fleadh was a success and passed without notable incidents as far as i know, things felt very different. as we drove around there were many more loyalist flags than we had seen in rural areas before, the red white and blue kerbs were more noticeable and i’m very glad the roundabout painters here have cottoned on to that particular sort of DIY decorating. even as an english atheist (protestant father, catholic mother) i did not feel safe or welcome in those areas so i can’t imagine what catholics must feel. my friend said that there is a hardcore loyalist contingent who refuse to integrate and despite many schools being fully integrated (including the one she teaches in and the one her children attend) children of some loyalist families/areas are being brought up with deeply radical views. i am at a loss as to what good the parades commission thought would come from authorising this march given it’s deadly history. i listened to local talk radio on my travels and the most radical and aggressive views were all from loyalist callers. despite having visited a number of times and meeting lovely people, it will be a long while before i go back. tourism has helped protect the good friday agreement to some degree but if things flare up again that economic boost will be jeopardised.
i would never be so arrogant as to think i know what’s best for the people of northern ireland. the history leading to where we are today is long, complex and full of bloodshed and fear on all sides. i hope this current situation can be peacefully de-escalated quickly.

I think the point is not whether the UK is “entitled” to give Northern Ireland away or not. The point is that the drive to keep Northern Ireland with the UK largely does not come from us - I would hazard that most UK citizens would be happy to let it go. I don’t feel territorial about it, I have other fish to fry. If it would resolve the issues, I would wave it off this afternoon and wish it well. Probably wouldn’t resolve anything though, would it? Not while (mostly) men want to feel angry and important.

That was the point all right.
A couple of pp were agreeing with “an English caller on an Irish radio show [who] suggested that the rest of the UK should have a vote on giving NI back to the Republic of Ireland.”

You say:
”I would hazard that most UK citizens would be happy to let it go. I don’t feel territorial about it, I have other fish to fry”.

It doesn’t matter what most UK citizens (ie those in GB) want in this regard. It’s not up to them.
Do you think the citizens of NI, Wales and Scotland should be able to vote on giving England away?

Many of the people in NI (about a third) identify solely as British because that is their heritage. Others consider themselves Northern Irish and British but not Irish. So lots in NI do not identify as Irish at all, something I really think is not fully understood in GB. The people wanting to march at the moment see themselves as British, not Irish (although they may accept an Irish passport for ease of travel!).

At the moment reunification could not take place without a return to violence. There is absolutely no doubt about that.

I grew up in Catholic West Belfast in the 80s. Parents now live in County Down.

The maddest thing I’ve seen recently was on a visit to Ballywalter, a loyalist town where, as well as the Union flags, they had an Israeli flag flying. According to my research:

“An Israeli flag flies in Ballywalter and other Northern Ireland towns as a symbolic extension of local sectarian politics, where pro-British loyalist and unionist communities display it in counter-position to Irish nationalist areas that fly Palestinian flags.”

I was tempted to pop into the EuroSpar and ask for some matzo, or where I could find their Menorahs (hardware, maybe?)

That's what I was trying to say.
Not that I'm not advocating any of it, just trying to make the point that most of the rest of the UK really don't care much.

It’s going to escalate and is threatening the power-sharing structure as certain politicians like Michelle O’Neill have shown up to stand with ‘sides’ saying they are there in personal capacities not as elected ministers, and that brings a tension, if those in the power-sharing executive are going against the court order: either you support the jurisdiction of the court, or you don’t. The risk is that the power-sharing agreement will collapse … again.

I don’t think Sinn Fein have ever claimed to support the jurisdiction of the courts, so that doesn’t matter.

Yeah they would not be what anyone would ever class the most law abiding among us.

I should add, there is a general crowd of ‘both sides’ standing in solidarity with residents, but any sort of standoff like this is inevitably political when politicians show up.

The Parades Commission got this badly wrong.

There are a few really good podcasts explaining the whole issue on BBC sounds called The State of Us” really clear and factual