Gross misconduct....what happens next

[Bobblesandwool]

I really need to voice this to someone who can help please. Frankly I'm sat here so worried, that my DH is going to lose his job.

He has a gross misconduct meeting, and been given the notes of the meeting. Mentioned his breaks being long, not fulfilling his job role. They do have a clock in and clock out system, and it did mention on the letter that they were satisfied with his break times. Went over his job role, about if he asked to move to a different location, what does he need to do.

After the meeting he was told that's fine, they will investigate and be on touch. We really can't afford to lose his job and I am so worried about this all. Any advice from anyone who has gone through this, or something similar? If he was at risk of losing his job, would they tell him in the meeting.

This was just a informal meeting between him and 2 managers, he wasn't told anything about this prior.

Any advice I can be given, I would be very grateful. He just says it'll be fine, but having never gone through this I am so worried.

My immediate thought with timekeeping was that he and a colleague have found a way to cheat the system to take longer breaks by clocking in and out using each others cards. So the records show accurate time keeping but the reality is different.

Has he given you the by notes to read yourself! Bet he hasn’t

This investigation sounds bat sh**. Is it possible that they have mixed him up with another employee with a similar name. Sounds far fetched but that actually happened at my previous workplace, manager went through three quarters of a disciplinary investigation before all involved realised it was for a different staff member. Obviously a massive confidentiality breach. If they said he had been accused of clocking in and out for break wrong but when they checked the log it was fine this sounds like they have been given the wrong name to investigate.

Would the breach of health and safety together with enquiries about his timekeeping refer to there being a necessity for one or more staff members to be present for certain tasks and this is being breached. His absence may put colleague’s safety at risk?

Dies he work in a lab? Operate machinery?

She’s already said that she HAS read the report

Ok so I have re read the document,

For the gross misconduct part it says breach of health and safety: this goes on to mention not scanning your badge, and just says you understand this must be done when on site. They reiterate this to him in the meeting. But nothing after that

Refusal to carry out instructions: and the meeting goes on to mention what would you do if we asked you to carry out another job on top of your tasks, and just says I would carry out my extra role as requested. In the last bit it says " there has been no mention of issues relating to refusing reasonable request" this is quoted on the document

Mentions about fraud, and this is where it says extra long breaks, but does say this is clearly not the case looking at the report. It says about the team managing breaks, and if it is not managed this is a breach of trust, but they are not saying this at this point.

He has I have read them and read them and read them again!

Employers do not need to give notice for an investigation meeting nor is there the legal right to representation (these things are best practice but not requirements) so I am assuming that is what this meeting was.
If the matter progresses to a disciplinary hearing your husband will be entitled to representation (usually colleague or union rep) and reasonable notice. Have a read of of the ACAS code which makes clear the requirements-

https://www.acas.org.uk/acas-code-of-practice-on-disciplinary-and-grievance-procedures

Ok so they are classing not scanning his badge as a breach of health & safety because it means that they can't prove he is on/off site. So for example those records are used in the event of a massive casualty event like a fire to confirm who shoukd have been in the building and who shouldn't so they know who they are looking for.

A breach of health & safety policy is a valid reason to class it as gross misconduct.

So has your dh not been scanning in & out?

Mentions about fraud, and this is where it says extra long breaks, but does say this is clearly not the case looking at the report. It says about the team managing breaks, and if it is not managed this is a breach of trust, but they are not saying this at this point

In my employee handbook it states the biggest source of theft is timekeeping and gives the example of taking long breaks.

This could be the route they are going down?
Theft = gross misconduct.
It’s a stretch to go straight to this surely though without giving warnings.

Also - since your dh belongs to a union he should call them tomorrow and send them
a copy of the documentation as they’ll be best placed to advise him having seen the notes.

It sounds like an investigation meeting. If they think he’s committed misconduct, there will be a disciplinary hearing with an invite. He’d have the right of representation. A trade union rep or a work colleague, if he’s done it best advice is to apologise and hope he gets a sanction rather than dismissal.

sounds like an investigation meeting under the disciplinary process. No need to give notice. Gives them a chance to ask him about it all as they fact find.

next step - they decide (without chatting to him
again) whether it goes to a disciplinary hearing. If so, he’ll get an invite letter and it’ll tell him the possible sanctions. If they think it is just a training thing or normal misconduct, worst case is normally some form of warning. If it’s more serious they will tell him it could be gross misconduct and sanctions can be upto dismissal without notice. He’ll get invited to a meeting and offered chance to bring a union member or colleague. They’ll tell him what he’s accused of.

then at the meeting the speak to him. Discuss the allegations. They try to figure out if it is misconduct or gross misconduct. They want to hear his mitigations (stress at home, health, remorse, promise to change). Then they decide what action to impose if any. And he’ll normally get a letter.

if He doesn’t have two years service then technically they can dismiss for no reason (as long as it’s not a bad reason like discriminatory or because he’s a whistleblower) so they just need to give notice.

the above is what they should do. If they don’t it could be unfair.

he should think about whether the things did happen, be honest, apologise where appropriate, explain where they are wrong, promise to be good and be open to feedback and change and say how committed he is to learning from this.

Honestly he has, they showed him his reports in the meeting and they even mention ' we are now showing you the reports, and explain to him how to read the data' and then goes on to mention we are satisfied with your break times, and understand you are not taking extra long breaks as mentioned.

This has all come about a colleague who has made a complaint. Where there are three people who are meant to be on shift and only 1 answered the radio. The other person did not answer , and the manager mentioned husband was on a break during this time

@Bobblesandwool do you have legal insurance with your house insurance? If so give them a call and ask for solicitor's advice.
Also, your DH should talk to his union.

Fraud will be anything to do with not working the hours you are paid for. h&S could be not complying with clocking in if that is needed to monitor attendance on site or something. Prob sounds ott but I’d be saying sorry, I get it, I’ll do better. None of this was intentional but I should have paid more attention to the procedures.

The first meeting is not a disciplinary meeting. It’s there to establish facts. So if he has mitigating circumstances for what they’re questioning him about they can then decide whether it is moving to disciplinary or not. The disciplinary is then held with notice, formal invitation and he has right to representation.

For example - employer says on X day we believe you took a longer break. Employee says actually I was ill and told my manager I’m leaving mid break and never clocks out. They check with said manager and they do no further action.

It sounds like your DH had an investigation meeting, not a disciplinary. So he doesn’t need to be offered right to representation or have any notice for this meeting.

As to outcome and next steps, it really depends on what is actually alleged. From your update there is a lot there.

Honestly I do appreciate all the advice given, I will tell him to pay more attention. I'll even give him this thread to read.

He just says it's nothing to worry about, his line manager has never raised concerns about him and his conduct before so really is unsure where all this is coming from

Maybe they need new procedures that only one person goes on a break and 2 people are always available to man the radio.

Has he broken procedures by going on a break leaving one person alone?

I assume something happened when one colleague was there on his own and they need to establish where the two missing colleagues were at the time.

I successfully appealed on procedural grounds when similar happened to me OP. Was called into a meeting on a Friday afternoon before a week’s A/L. Absolutely shocked to see my manager and one of the partners there and being told I could bring a colleague with me.
Then began the “so what do YOU think might have happened?” (I honestly had no clue) before informing me of a grossly sexist comment I had made, ushering me out of the room and handing me with a copy of my letter to be kept on file.

Absolutely shell shocked, threw up on the way home and was in bits. Had been an absolutely exemplary employee, single handily ran a lucrative service and was well liked by colleagues.

Tuens out the (extremely odd, lazy, questionable hygiene) apprentice, who I had supported and gone out of my way to be kind to, had overheard my mutter “I f’kin hate men” as I leant back on my chair in disbelief after my distressed 14 year old DD phoned in distress (she NEVER phones at work) to inform me she’d just been sexually assaulted on public transport. Abroad. Looking back I think this boy had in for me because he knew I’d been to a women’s conference recently and had me pegged as an evil bigoted middle-aged TERF when I chuckled and said “you can’t change sex” when he earnestly informed me one of his mates had decided to be a woman during lockdown.

No formal notice, no investigation, no provision of a copy of their disciplinary procedure (not on the intranet) - absolutely nothing was done properly.

ACAS website was brilliant and helped me craft a letter. They didn’t have a leg to stand on. Thankfully, while I was off, I applied for a job, went for interview, got said job and returned from A/L with appeal letter in one hand and resignation letter in the other.

Your DH needs to consult ACAS urgently and an employment solicitor if necessary. I would suggest he separates the procedural from the actual accusations too.

What happened as a result of this radio not being answered? I’m only thinking if something had the potential of becoming serious as a result of this that’s where the gross would come from. Eg - a prison guard not being available to answer radio and a fight breaks out which delays response or the risk of this happening

No he didn't, as they called on the radio, 2 people were meant to be on shift ( and it was his break time as pre agreed) one person answered and the other who was meant to be on didn't answer ( am not sure as to why, but this is the person who has made the allegations about him)

Some of this advice is odd. If he’s in the union then it is them he should be contacting. Not ACAS. Unions have rules which mean if you take advice from anyone else then they don’t represent. Plus - that’s what he’s paying for. Forget all this crap like seeing if you have cover on house insurance (what?) because the union covers anything legal if you are fully paid up.

Tell him - contact his union - email them but try and call too. I have been a union official for over 30 years.

ok, its becoming Clearer. Someone has made a complaint citing serious health and safety and conduct issues if what they are saying is true. The managers are doing a preliminary investigation and are satisfied that he's not committing fraud by essentially stealing time, or causing a danger by not answering calls when he should be. There might be some learning about how breaks are scheduled and communicated, possibly staffing shortages and a question to the worker who wasn't on break and didn't answer the call. I wouldn't be too worried either if I was your husband. The managers just had to explain that these would be gross misconduct if they were true.