I'm not sure that I have time or the energy for this today, but here goes...
@TheHungryHungryLandsharks you have made a lot of clear statements. I'm going to pull out a few and dissect them.
To @OctaviaC74
I maintain: I know people with the breeds you’ve mentioned who have their dogs off the lead, no recall issues, and no shock collar. It’s called competent ownership.
And I maintain that it depends on the dog. A breed description is not a guarantee. All dogs fall somewhere on the bell curve of behaviours for their breeds. Think about it. You have show-line GRs. They're a different bag of tricks from the working line, yet somehow the working line dogs were used to develop the show-line ones. You pick out the ones with low drive, limited ambition around game, who are very handler-soft.
It also depends on control of the environment. For many dog owners, strong environmental control is just not possible. Because of where we live, and what exercise areas we feasibly have access to, my puppies have to learn young that you leave livestock and wildlife alone. You can hunt, but you may not chase, and you must stop or recall as soon as I tell you to.
'Competent ownership' means having control of your dog. Ideally, that dog is well exercised, fulfilled and very very happy with the life it leads. (If you can get to define 'competent ownership', so can I.)
And more importantly, not all gun dog trainers are capable nor competent enough to train particular gun dogs. I wouldn’t want someone who mostly does spaniels coming near my Goldens.
It's true that gundog trainers vary. That being said, most of them train a variety of breeds perfectly competently, and adjust their expectations and techniques accordingly. I'm not sure how much the average show-line Golden needs a gundog trainer. This is not to disparage show-line dogs: they often make excellent pets and they are usually chilled and delightful dogs. Now and then you'll get one with a bit of drive and ambition who needs more control and fulfilment (friends of mine got one of those, after decades of owning GRs and finding them an absolute doddle). That's when you might want a gundog trainer.
If you have a dog you can’t train or control to the degree you need an e-collar, that’s on you as an owner.
See above about individual dogs and the feasibility of environmental control.
It’s never bad or untrainable dogs, it’s bad owners.
Not true that it's 'bad owners' (WOOT! I am a 'bad owner'. Do tell my dogs.) As I said upthread, both the BSAVA and Simone Mueller admit that +R control of chasing doesn't work for every dog. Do you know better than them? Could you share your +R techniques for control of chasing and show some videos? Because, genuinely, it would be great to know what you can achieve.
Get a dog that matches your ability as an owner, not a dog that you think you deserve.
See above about breed variability. And in my view my dogs do match my ability. By the standard of pet dogs, they are extremely well-trained. by the standard of working dogs, they are so-so. They were well-trained even before I got the e-collars to resolve the issues with prey that, despite all my efforts, we still had.
Honestly, perhaps it is condescending of me, but I don’t care.
Well, I find it to be so. You don't know me, my circumstances or my dogs, but you're happy to sit in judgment and imply or outright state that people who don't agree with you are bad owners, not competent trainers, and so on.
As I said above I can almost see it in one instance. But ultimately, these sorts of situations will always fall into me: wrong dog wrong family, bucket.
'Almost see it' - well, I appreciate that you're trying to look at the situation with a bit more objectivity. And I don't how it's the wrong family if the dog is happy. If someone medicates a dog because it's reactive or anxious, is that the wrong dog in the wrong home? Because a lot of medicated dogs, so I gather from those who know, are unfulfilled and under-exercised.
My friend has a Mali - they’re notoriously difficult to train (given they’re more intelligent than 99.9% of the human population) yet she managed it using reward based training.
Good for her, seriously. I have no issue with that. Yet I know, from the 101 podcasts I have listened to, that +R training takes very much longer. Practically speaking, not everyone has the time. Or is that 'wrong dog, wrong family' again - even if the dog is happy? Even if the dog is being competed and is judged, in part, on its enthusiasm and overall emotional state? Because the protection sports include that now: the dog needs to look happy and engaged.
I care for random dog’s wellbeing more than I do for their human feelings on the matter.
Does that also apply when the dog's wellbeing includes chasing and killing rabbits, which the human hates to witness, or barking like a lunatic every time it's let out into the garden, to the point that Environmental Health and the landlord are on the owner's case, and the owner's nerves are in tatters?
And that’s okay as we’re allowed to have different views and opinions. It’s just like how I don’t agree that the royal family are lizard people but some do - different views.
You make a great point in your first sentence. And the ruin it in the second, by implying that the understanding and use of aversion is like believing that the Royals are lizard people. I assume you chose that either unthinkingly or to make 'the other side' look ridiculous. And there was I, in the car this morning, taking my dogs to somewhere a bit different because they (and I) enjoy variety, listening to a highly technical, science-heavy podcast about safety cues, dopamine, cortisol, negatively valenced affect and so on. The main speaker has 30 years experience of training military working dogs, and my God, he knows his stuff. But lizard people. Sure.
To @21ZIGGY
Then why the e-collar? If your dog is as well trained and controlled as you claim, you don’t need one. No where have you said why you need one.
Perhaps because in part the dog is so well controlled because it has been e-collar trained. Perhaps because - as iirc Ziggy said - this is a large and serious dog which she doesn't want to have the chance to frighten anyone.