Recall training for an adult dog - horrible park incident

[Quickdraw23]

Hi there,

has anyone any advice for revising recall training for a 5 year old dog.

my dog is normally very reliable with recall but I’ve had an incident in the park today that has really shaken me.

i was walking my spaniel around the same playing fields that we go on most days with DS (11 months) in the pram. My dog came back every time I called her until we reached the last bit of the walk when we met a man with two dogs, one on the lead one off the lead.

My dog bounded towards them to sniff and I called her because I saw his dog was on the lead, but she didn’t come which is really out of character, she struck a playful stance in front of the dog on the lead. He began swearing at me, calling me a fucking idiot and telling me to get her back on the lead.

I was calling her, but she thought it was a game and was dancing around trying to entice his dogs to play. He kept swearing at me, then began walking his dog towards her intentionally and encouraging it to attack, so she thought even more it was a game. I shouted at him to stop it and that he was winding her up and to walk away and he kept screaming that I’m a fucking idiot and shouldn’t have my dog off the lead. I was calling her all the time but she was so excited. He was then walking towards her trying to kick her and I was shouting at him to stop it and he kept swearing at me.

I was trying to get my dog back on the lead and keep checking back on DS who was parked in the pram about 6m away from where this is was happening. It was horrendous. the whole thing probably lasted about two minutes and he was verbally abusing me throughout. I kept saying to him “I’m trying to get her back on” and she kept dancing around because she thought it was all a game. He just kept swearing at me calling me a fucking idiot.

I told him to go away and that I would not be talking to him in front of my baby. It’s the only thing I could think to say. I was scared. A woman nearby actually told him he needed to walk his dogs away and he just kept moving towards my dog and shouting and swearing at me.

Ive walked my dog there for over three years and never had anything like this happen before. We did lots of recall training. I know she should have come back when I called her, and if a dog on a lead snapped or bit her because she hadn’t come away I would blame my dog not the dog on the lead, but it’s so out of character for her not to come back.

I’m ordering a retractable lead right now, I don’t feel safe walking her off the lead again, but does anyone have any advice on recall drills or training I can do? Is it just back to basics?

Please be gentle with me, I know my dog was in the wrong for not coming back, but I’m so upset. I’m scared of bumping into him on that park again even if she is on the lead 😞

It’s crazy isn’t it, they need to do something. I might get some lemon juice actually.

What do you think they do when they come that close? My dog has been attacked, scratched and bitten. As have I when trying to protect him. More than once. Yes I’d pepper spray it. And it’s twat of an owner if it didn’t stop them being able to control their dog.

Have you tried doing that to an attacking dog with teeth while also holding your dog and keeping it separate?

I do agree that we will have to agree to disagree. I think our fundamental world views are very different - you go for safety and security, I go for freedom and risk. I entirely respect your right to breed and train your dogs as you see fit, as long as those dogs are healthy, happy and fulfilled, and you do not compromise the future of your breed with any of your breeding decisions.

There are very. very highly skilled positive-only trainers out there who conclude, after much soul-searching, that +R can't do it all (see, for example, thecanineparadigm.com/2026/03/08/nick-bengers-coming-out-party/ ). They come across dogs that they can't help, with distressed owners. Some of them refer on to other trainers. Others decide to bite the bullet and change how they train. And there are trainers who use aversion who learn a huge amount about +R because they absolutely value what it brings - the best explanation I ever heard of teaching a dog a positive marker was by Michael Ellis. And I know people who have had decades of experience with HPRs, with multiple field trial wins under their belts, who suddenly find that they have a dog, of a breed they've worked for 20 or 30 years, who isn't like the others, who needs something else to be safe and reliable.

Personally I think the issue isn't the tools used (food, toys, harnesses, head-collars, slip leads, e-collars), it's how well they're used. And there are degrees of aversion - from body blocking (which many dogs find very intimidating), to using a head-halter, to a low stim on an e-collar, to shouting 'NO!', to checking a dog hard on a lead, to a higher e-collar stim, to checking a dog VERY hard on the lead, to kneeing a dog in the ribs... Then there are the welfare issues that do not arise from the use of punishment, like dogs who pull like trains so end up hardly ever being walked, or dogs who are allowed to become overweight and obese, which significantly shortens their life expectancy. Never mind - and this is something we do agree on - shockingly poor breeding practices where the bitches live in terrible conditions.

The only thing I'd ask of you is to understand that I love my dogs, seek to give them very good lives, and that I constantly revise and adjust what I think I know on the basis of the information that I am forever absorbing from podcasts, academic papers and talking to dog trainers.

As a final comment, there was a dead leveret on the track where I walked my dogs this afternoon. They didn't kill it, but given the state of its fur, quite probably another dog did. It was still slightly warm, going stiff, eyes completely clouded. It reminded me of why I train my dogs the way I do: I don't consider dead leverets to be acceptable fallout from a poorly trained dog. And I also don't consider restricting a high-drive dog to the lead, enclosed fields and sterile walks as acceptable fallout either.

As you say, we must agree to disagree.

@EdithStourton you’ll never get Mumsnet dog owners to agree with you. I’ve not used an e-collar but I’ve used a prong. You’re dead right and clearly know your stuff with your dogs not chasing hares. I have a breed that you don’t mess about with and needs to be fully trained. These same owners will then use a haltee that hurts their little noses for the rest of their life rather than a prong or e-collar as a temporary measure that causes discomfort, then put themselves on a pedestal of dog ownership.

Let's go back to the beginning...
I teach my dogs recall using positive reinforcement. I teach it this way in multiple places with multiple distractions.
I teach my dogs NEVER to chase livestock (because livestock is easy to find, plus I know people who will let me train around their sheep). I teach them NEVER to chase rabbits (because if you know you local countryside, and their daily habits, rabbits are also fairly easy to find)
However, where I live there is nowhere that I can walk my dogs off-lead where they won't encounter game birds, deer (we have at least 3 species in the immediate area) and hares. The presence of game birds, deer and hares is very unpredictable

I don't know how familiar you are with hares, but in general they do one of two things when they sense an approach. They either get up and bugger off when you're still a considerable distance away, or they flush within about 10 feet of you. The day one of my dogs ripped a long line out of my hands when a hare flushed six feet away I had no intention of 'allowing' her to chase. Firstly, she was on the long line. Secondly, we were in the beating line, and hares usually get out of the way in plenty of time. And off she went, up the field and over the fast road several hundred yards away. She was gone for perhaps 5 minutes, but they were very long minutes, as I ran wheezing up the heavy plough, over the road, into the next field, calling and whistling. Lucky you if you have never had management fail in a heart-stopping way like that.

So, no, I wasn't allowing gratuitous chasing. Because I'm not a fool.

And you can apparently know all about my dogs' relationship with me without ever having met them, or seen them with me. They're not in fear of me. When I recall them, they come bounding joyfully back in hopes of a treat. If I sit on the sofa, they're very likely to get up and settle in next to me. When I get back from a day out, they're all over me like a rash.

I doubt I'll convince you, so I'll stop wasting my time.

That's just the point really. You only have your own experience. And you can't really judge from an anonymous forum who is using ecollars responsibly and who isn't.

As you have said, if you were faced with a german shepherd, you wouldn't know where to begin. The starting point of different breeds are different. My dog is four years old, and I have only recently been conditioning an e collar for reasons that aren't relevant to this thread. But what I ( and probably others that use them or areconsidering using them) don't need is people who dont know anything about them with any direct experience to start judging and sitting on their high horse like they know everything.

A significant proportion of what I do with my dog and what I have done for the last four and a half years, is reward based. I can't remember the last time I have actually used the collar although he wears it on all walks.

I have a massive black shepherd. If he did what op's dog did, or what you said your dog did, which was going up to other dogs and licking their bits, i would have some pretty angry owners giving me hell because he isn't a small little gun dog or a cockapoo or a friendly looking golden retriever. I am a responsible dog owner. I have trained this dog exceptionally and with serious dedication so to have you suggest that people have just got the wrong dog trainer without knowing anything about them, reduces me and others to idiots to suit your narrative.

You said all dogs fluke on their recall which I assume means blow you off occasionally. My dog doesn't blow me off. He's not in pain, he's not abused. He knows that there is a consequence if he doesn't come when called. It can't be rainbows and butterflies all the time. Sometimes there have to be consequences to be responsible and keep our dogs safe.

None of this is to say that in my case, my dog is anything but very people friendly and very dog neutral, because of all the work I have put in with him. But I have come across a lot of dickheads with " friendly" dogs that my dog just did not want to meet and those dogs need some real training and those owners need to be responsible. So where I have been responsible, I don't need cutting down for my decisions.

shock collars are, but that's not what the vast majority of people are using and calling e collars any more

Another person happy to spout their opinion without knowing any of the facts

My dog definitely has my card marked. He knows everyday I get out of bed I do the best for him until I go back to bed at night. Where he sleeps. With me.

Attacking is obviously different. Dogs approach my on lead reactive dog but if they’re simply being over friendly it’s not necessary to kick them (as suggested by another pp) or spray them at all.

He's not in pain, he's not abused. He knows that there is a consequence if he doesn't come when called. It can't be rainbows and butterflies all the time. Sometimes there have to be consequences to be responsible and keep our dogs safe.

You lost me at that. ‘Consequences.’ It’s a dog for goodness sake and consequences, whether you want it to or not sounds quite unpleasant. Shocking it is never necessary if you’re a halfway competent owner or decent person.

A significant proportion of what I do with my dog and what I have done for the last four and a half years, is reward based.

Then why the e-collar? If your dog is trained to a good standard, you don’t need one.

I don’t think you can call yourself a responsible owner if you have a big dog that needs an e-collar because you don’t trust it - which is entirely how your latest post reads. Big dog ownership has far more responsibility, (and rightly so) and if you can’t trust your dog then stick it on a lead or walk in quieter places or use fields.

As it is, with the exception of wanky pants (my boy) none of my dogs have ever fluked. He did it once at 15 months. Never again. The winky sucking is after I’ve checked other dogs are friendly - still embarrassing though. If I can manage five dogs off lead on a walk, with no aversive techniques, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect others to manage one - again, without aversive techniques.

What we can expect is that dogs that need devices to control them (e-collars) should be properly restrained and/or muzzled. That’s a lesser of two evils (although ideally they’d be in homes which could trust and train them properly).

You can tell yourself you’re doing what’s best for your dog but most animal rights charities, the kennel club (which sets a pretty low bar on animal welfare) and the BVA would disagree. And when animal rights charities and the KC agree on something…that’s pretty damning.

As I said up thread: buy the dog you can control and train, not the dog you think you’re entitled to.

It was probably me that mentioned kicking. Perhaps PP and I weren’t clear enough but I only kick when they attack. That being said, an off lead dog approaching and ignoring their owner is likely to escalate. I generally stand still and wait for the owner grab them or stand in between if they get too close. Typically doesn’t get any more than that unless they have made their way over with attacking in mind. Both happen regularly enough.

Ermmm PP can train and control. She’s written a post on how she has and does. She’s will train her dog the way she sees fit and you do the same with yours.

@TheHungryHungryLandsharks
You lost me at that. ‘Consequences.’ It’s a dog for goodness sake and consequences, whether you want it to or not sounds quite unpleasant.
Life is full of consequences. Some are pleasant, and some are not. Animals, including humans, are biologically equipped to cope with them. In fact, when we manage to avoid an unpleasant consequence, we can feel a little buzz of dopamine. You know there is a consequence for speeding, or for skiving off work. I'm sure your DC know that are consequences for not doing their homework, or trailing mud through the house, or whatever. I'm completely unclear as to why our dogs should live lives free of negative consequences - especially if those consequences give them the freedom to run off-lead in the open countryside. Why should I muzzle and restrain my dogs, as you suggest - wouldn't that be worse for their welfare than sensible e-collar training? I barely use the collars now when we go walking.

Shocking it is never necessary if you’re a halfway competent owner or decent person.
I know your post wasn't aimed at me, but I'd made it clear to you that I'm perfectly happy for you to train as you want, so long as your dogs are safe, happy and fulfilled. But here you use the word 'shock', with all its emotive connotations, when a low-level stim feels like a stick insect walking on your skin. And you imply that those of us who use e-collars are not even 'halfway competent' at dog training, and nor are we 'decent' people. Have you paused to consider how insulting and alienating that is? Do you think those of us who use e-collars are going to be persuaded of the rightness of your opinions when you resort to ad hominem attacks on us to make your point? Especially when we have done a lot of research, carefully conditioned the collars, and have happy dogs to show for it?

As I said up thread: buy the dog you can control and train, not the dog you think you’re entitled to.
And as I pointed out upthread, sometimes people with extensive breed experience get a dog which isn't what they expected.

And finally... dogs with high prey drive are notoriously difficult to control. The BSAVA is very anti e-collar. Yet their own manual of behavioural medicine rates the success of force free techniques for resolving chasing as 'only fair'. Simone Mueller, doyenne of the Predation Substitute Training (force free), admits herself that some dogs will not be contained by her methods.

Yet there am I, not a 'decent person' by your lights, not even 'halfway competent' according to you, with two happy, highly social, fulfilled dogs who can be safely off-lead around hares, deer and game birds.

I'll stop now, because I'm irritated and and don't want to be rude.

Oh, and the bloody Kennel Club.

Yes, we'll register dogs that can barely breathe.
Sure, we'll register dogs that can hardly walk.
Yep, we'll register dogs churned out by puppy farmers.
No, we won't mandate health tests because it would piss off lots of breeders.
No, we won't mandate lower COI, that would piss off breeders too and we need their £££.
Nope, we won't run a strong campaign on canine obesity and overweight - we can't, because look at the fat labs who waddle round the ring at Crufts while we wang on about 'substantial bone' and 'a day in the field'. Also, it would piss off lots of pet dog owners who know that Fluffy is fat and unfit, but don't want to admit it.

But yeah, let's go for the easy, emotive target - e-collars. About which most people know sod all, but about which they can soon be convinced to have an opinion, on the basis of complete ignorance.

That way we look like we're doing something!

<slow handclap>

A lead is a consequence. A muzzle is a consequence.

Nowhere did I say that I can't control, train, cope with or trust my dog. More blind assertion from you to suit the story you tell yourself

I think it was actually someone who talked about dogs approaching them on their bike - not sure if that was you. Of course it makes sense to defend yourself/your own animals if there is a threat. My experience is that things generally don’t escalate. There are some dickhead dogs and she’s put her foot on a chihuahua that would not take no for an answer, but like you usually I can stand between her and other dogs and I aim to stay calm as part of reassuring her. What I encounter more often is stupid people who think their dog being barked or growled back at - when they’ve run over to us - is going to mortally injure them. But I’m still not a dick to them, because that only makes things worse.

Regardless of the appalling actions of the man, the dog had no recall.

Dog with no recall or rather a recall they chose to ignore when it suits them are the reason we have attacks on Farm animals, doubtless you blame those horrible sheep for running away?

Arrogant dog owners who blame everyone else for their dogs behaviours are the problem here, not an owner who now have a pointer (which is nothing like a Lab or Retriever) which never "flukes" his recall.

BTW the setting is Vibrate NOT shock, that breaks his concentration and training kicks in.

Yes very true on trainers, good and bad out there but both were highly recommended, with v good track records.

Like i said, the dog is now happier than ever, he does, without question have a 100% recall, whatever the distraction and with no need to use the vibrate function.

Before they reluctantly got the collar, they tried everything, long leads, games, food, professional trainers, every trick in the book, all worked perfectly, highly intelligent dog, until the dogs prey drive took over.

It comes across as very condescending that you make judgements on me, the owners and the dog with zero knowledge of any of us, i haven't even told you the specific breed.

Then why the e-collar? If your dog is as well trained and controlled as you claim, you don’t need one. No where have you said why you need one.

Unlike @EdithStourton who I can almost see the rationale for, as she has a high prey breed which they are notoriously tricky.

I am actually genuinely trying to understand @21ZIGGY why if your dog is as well trained as you claim, you need one. Particularly given the breed.

@OctaviaC74 OPs dog had one fluke. Your friends dog sounds like it was either untrainable by them or they gave up to soon. Very different situations.

Honestly, perhaps it is condescending of me, but I don’t care. I’ll never truly understand why people need an e-collar. As I said above I can almost see it in one instance. But ultimately, these sorts of situations will always fall into me: wrong dog wrong family, bucket. In my eyes no dog is untrainable with the right non-aversive method. My friend has a Mali - they’re notoriously difficult to train (given they’re more intelligent than 99.9% of the human population) yet she managed it using reward based training.

I’ll always put what’s right for the dog (and in my eyes that does include non-aversive methods) over human satisfaction and desire. I care for random dog’s wellbeing more than I do for their human feelings on the matter.

But as I said upthread, me and the e-collar supporters will never see eye to me. And that’s okay as we’re allowed to have different views and opinions. It’s just like how I don’t agree that the royal family are lizard people but some do - different views.

@WhatWouldDianeLockhartDo Given she’s not said why she suddenly felt the need to use one despite being asked, you can’t know that.

The only reason I can actually think of why someone would suddenly use an e-collar after four years of having a perfectly trained dog, other than a serious recall break (which others have admitted but this poster won’t…) is aggression. If it’s as simple as a recall break, why not say?

@TheHungryHungryLandsharks From what I have read, you own a golden retriever? A dog that’s renowned for being very easy to train and recommended for first time owners. Whilst I’m not taking away from you having a very good boy, a shepherd is a different dog entirely. It could be many things over than aggression (something you may have said because of the breed) but unless you’re a top level dog trainer, you should assume less.

@WhatWouldDianeLockhartDo I have five ranging in ages from almost 14 - less than a year and three of them ‘work.’ All of them off lead and one recall fluke in twenty years.

Yes, they are relatively easy to train (although lots appear to be untrained - which isn’t always lack of owner ability, as they are very stubborn). But I also rescue the breed and get a lot in who aren’t trained because they aren’t as easy a people think. It’s a very common misconception about the breed.

Either way, five dogs is a lot harder to wrangle than one particularly given their age ranges. I can make all mine go from a full sprint to a down and stay with one word. If I can do that, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect basic obedience from other dogs - particularly as I am not a trainer. I managed it because I am my dogs world and they want to do what I say. Not through any aversive methods.

I did make the point that I would never get a dog I couldn’t train. Which has been my point throughout - get the dog that matches your skill as an owner.

NB; They’re not really suitable for first time owners due to some serious behavioural issues they can be prone to if not properly trained or raised, including aggression, resource guarding and SA. Lots of other breeders I know are making similar decisions and the line of thought is really changing on their suitability for novice owners. Not the point of the thread, but just wanted to say it - my breed club are moving towards that policy.

I agree with this. I know that if I start shouting and screaming and lashing out at a dog that's bouncing about in front of me while it's owner is trying to recall it, then I will escalate the situation and cause my own dog to react because he thinks we're in danger. Keep calm, stand in front of my dog, don't react. If I was genuinely about to be attacked then it would be different obviously, but the vast majority of tge time it's just a lapse in the dog's behaviour. This man was looking for a reason to be aggressive and sounded like he wanted the dogs to fight.

@WhatWouldDianeLockhartDo pressed send to soon!

I would also say, that despite my dogs being highly trained, I understand flukes happen. Dogs aren’t mindless zombies.

Which was the point of my original post on the first page - the idea that OP should immediately stick an e-collar on her dog, which someone did suggest, after one incident is just mind boggling. Which no one has admitted was frankly insane suggestion - instead we’ve got this (rather pointless) debate on the validity of e-collars.

We should all be agreed that shoving an e-collar on a dog after one small slip is completely unacceptable and that people who DO think that are unfit to own a dog. I don’t think that’s a controversial thought. There are far more avenues to explore than that after one incident. But I seem to be the only person willing to say that.