New horse all gone wrong

[Chocolatecakeandcoffee]

First horse, been a dream for many years (am 44) and has all gone wrong. He arrived with a cold and had to be kept in a stable until he was better. He’s never been kept in a stable and ended up being in for four days. On the fourth day he was tied up outside the stable while being mucked out and broke the twine and bolted off to the fields on the head collar and lead rope. No one could catch him so the YO said to put him in the field. I left him for the weekend to settle in (visiting him in the field, grooming a bit and giving a few bits of apple). On Monday caught him and led him to the yard for some food (just held the lead rope while he ate) then straight back to the field). Same on Tuesday. Wed tried to tie him up while he had his food but he got a bit stressy. Thursday he was ridden and was ok although tried to run off as the halter was around his neck as I got the bridle on. Luckily one of the girls who work at the yard managed to hold him. On Friday I caught him and was going to ride but he was stressy and one of the girls who work there rode him. He was ok. On Sat and Sunday I just caught him and brought him down for some chaff and carrots/apples. Monday-Tue he was caught etc and ridden on Tue. All good. Wed and Thurs caught him then he ran off. Managed to ring him down to yard for food. Today he bolted as I was trying to tack him up knocking me flying and almost running into a lady who was leading her horse to the field. He then broke into the field. I managed to rug him up and left him. I think he’s not suitable. He was lovely when I tried him and I thought he’d be great. Am so sad now...I need to return him to the dealer. He was meant to be a happy hack for me any two daughters but we don’t have the experience and I am worried he will hurt them with his bargey behaviour. Can I return him to the dealer as not suitable (I’ve let her know but she’s not answering my calls)? It’s been 21/2 weeks since I got him. Thanks for reading

I’m glad you have come to a decision, and sorry you’ve had such a rough time with your first experience of horse ownership.

Not that it changes anything now, but perhaps it will give a fresh perspective - you say this horse had a virus when you tried him. I would guess he felt unwell and his energy levels were lower than normal, so you didn’t get a clear picture of his personality. Once you moved him and he got better, you were dealing with a horse who was both unsettled in his new home and was a livelier character than you expected.

For the future - you are in the nice position of having another horse to ride and work with, which is really helpful after stressful experience. I would have some lessons - riding lessons and handling/ groundwork - with your loan horse. This will help reinforce your confidence and give you some more techniques for dealing with your next horse. Hopefully your next one won’t cause so much stress, but it is very common for horses to get unsettled when they move, and to respond differently to less experienced handlers (and we are all less experienced than a professional dealer handling multiple horses of all sorts every day). Being prepared for that and knowing how to nip any handling issues in the bud is a good idea.

If you can, take your instructor with you when you go horse shopping. They’ll know how you ride and should be a good, independent judge of the kind of horse you need.

Well done again for making a difficult decision, and good luck.

I agree you need to take someone very trustworthy and experienced with you when you go to view again. Do not buy after just one view. Personally I would never/have never bought from a dealer although I get that there are some good ones out there.

And safe, sane, sensible horses suitable for novices are worth a premium I'd say so be prepared to adjust your budget, or else consider an older horse looking for a quieter life if all you genuinely want is a happy hacker.

Good luck with your horse search im sure you will find the right one for you. Opposite end of the country so can't help with the dealers. Some good websites I've found are horsemart, preloved, horseandhound. I would say for the better dealers/quality horses horsequest is the best one. I find preloved is a bit wishy/washy. Then you get horsemart. Not too bad. Horseandhound. I dont think much gets posted on there compared to the others.

I am a first time owner. My pony never behaved like this when she arrived, yes, she was a bit unsettled , but never hard to handle ( or ride ... )

Update: cannot return horse as too attached! Taking everything slowly. He now comes to call in the field and follows me to the gate (even without a lead rope). He’s been leading nicely to the yard (have practiced once/twice every day). I’m renting a stable (thanks for the suggestion) and he is having a meal a day in there. Hopefully he’ll get used to this and I can tack up/groom etc when he’s in there. The other owners and the YO have been really supportive and reassuring. Even though things are not where I expected them to be I can see improvements. Has anyone else had a horse who has taken a couple of months to settle? What did you do to help them settle. Thanks

Thanks for the update OP.
Routine, routine, routine should make him feel more secure.
How is he in the stable before/after he’s eaten?

Fab update op.
If your feeding him have you considered looking at calmers? There are various supplements around and also vet prescribed ones. My advice would be to do some research and see what might suit him. Sometimes it doesn't help other times it make a massive difference.

Oh good for you and good luck OP, plenty of new owners have a “what have I done?!” period in the beginning and come through it. I didn’t think you were in the wrong to send the horse back, but I don’t think you’re wrong to keep him either, if you’ve decided you’re prepared to work with him after all.

My horse took a LONG time to settle - I would say 6-12 months. However, this isn’t usual by any means, and there is a major backstory to his situation. I won’t go into every detail because it would take days, but I’ll mention a few things that might be relevant.

Above all, the thing that solved our problems was getting my horse was well and comfortable. Mine had health issues (luckily resolvable) that hopefully don’t apply here. But do all the normal responsible things ASAP - have the farrier, the dentist, worm or do worm counts, saddle check, maybe physio. A sore horse or a poorly one can’t be a cheerful, willing partner. We struggled to make any progress until my horse felt good, and that took several months.

Other than that, consistent and correct handling made the biggest difference. As I said in my last post, it is worth getting some instruction or at least looking into horses’ body language and groundwork. My horse was never bargey but he was very anxious and spooky - bringing his attention back to me before he panicked was key. He now looks to me when he feels anxious, but he learnt that, it isn’t a magical bond type thing . I have been around horses all my life and have had tricky/quirky ones before, but I still benefitted from experienced eyes on our partnership, on the ground and ridden. I knew what to do but it was good to have some support and fine-tuning while I did it.

We also really benefitted from palling up with another livery and her horse, who were willing to hack with us and share schooling sessions. Her horse is an older, seen everything and got the t-shirt type. He made a big difference to my horse just by being there and being chilled. However, my horse was never allowed to just follow him everywhere and get dependent, we would ride side by side or I’d take the lead for part of each ride.

Let us know how you get on!

Aw. Well done OP. Thing with a horse like that is that if you can get to the other side of it, you will have the strongest bond.

As I said, he does sound rather like my horse. I agree with pp that routine is key. Routine and clarity. Be very clear and absolutely black and white about what you expect. Consider using a calmer - I find Blue Chip Karma works really well. Things which feel kind might be unclear to him, so be firm but never lose your temper.

And yes, absolutely they can settle, once you get the routine right. With my boy, he absolutely panics if when stabled he cannot see another horse. One yard owner tried to fix this by tying him up and removing other horses from his sight. As a result he broke free and she described his behaviour after that as dangerous. Well don't fucking do it then, it's cruel. (We left that yard). I make sure when he's stabled, he's in sight of other horses. I can't change that behaviour, since he was 12 when I got him, but I can work with it.

I'd say work out what things he really needs to do, and work out which things you can just adapt round. Then with the things he really needs to do, introduce them gradually and in ways he can understand and cope with. Good luck with him!

Excellent news... just time and patience will help him settle.

Before you know it, you'll have forgotten all this ever happened.

Good luck with your new pony adventures 😊

I was in your shoes 13 years ago. Bought (privately) a feisty little mare. She tools ages to settle. Couldn’t get a bloody saddle to fit off the peg. Lots and lots and lots of challenging ridden behaviour but perfect on the ground. Contacted a dealer to sell her on but couldn’t part with her because it wasn’t her fault I’d bought on impulse. Still got her! Love her to bits. My daughter “grew into” her and stormed through Pony Club and the three of us have won more rosettes than I can count. Thank God I didn’t give her up! Moral? Patience
perseverance and good advice can turn a basically good but unsettled a d anxious horse around. Good luck on your journey together!

Thanks so much for the lovely stories and ideas. I will look into calmers, I’ve ordered some calming cookies-do they work? I’m firm but gentle and he seems to be responding. I think he’s really trying- he feels unsettled but it trying to cope with those feelings. He responds to praise and is very affectionate...
I’ve ordered a monty roberts book and a book about horse behaviour by Kate someone! Been watching lots of videos too. Lots of support from YO too. Got saddler coming in 2 weeks so will continue going for walks/doing a bit of ‘join up’ stuff (not done this before)/ grooming him etc.At the moment he isn’t settled in the stable. Anyone ever had a horse who isn’t settled in a stable...any tips? Will gradually lengthen the time he’s in the stable (only 5-10 mins at the moment)...any other bonding ideas/other general ideas gratefully received!

Haven’t read the full thread (so sorry if I’m repeating) but a game changer for me with a bargey one was to buy the Monty Roberts dually halter. It comes with a dvd to show you how to use it, plus there’s lots of videos only and social media.
It sounds like everything is new to him and you need to set boundaries. This halter will give you the opportunity to do that safely.
Also, there’s so many horsemanship accounts to pick up great tips to get you going in the right direction.
Every day is a school day with horses !

Haha just read you are looking into Monty Roberts - excellent!
The calming cookies work on mine yes, but I need to give one first thing in morning, an hour before I start the activity (clipping), and usually another as I’m about to start. You need to give them time to work and top up if necessary.

I think once the groundwork is done, you’ll find them much calmer everywhere including stable.

We already had two horses (who settled really quickly) when we got our third horse a 17hh 2 7-year old Irish Sports Horse last July. When he came he was bargy as hell, wouldn’t stand still for a second, swung his arse constantly when tied up outside his stable, was aggressive when you entered stable if he was eating and made faces if you approaches stable door when he was inside. He made an unhealthy connection with another horse in the field and threatened me when I tried to remove him from the field and also he kicked out at my husband when he tried to bring him in in another incident (I witnessed and would describe it as more of a threat that was unlucky to connect) and he fractured his elbow 🙈meh went through a phase at start when he was nappy to ride including the odd buck.. pain in the arse to pick his feet etc..

Our yard is very routined, very structured, all (mainly) on same schedule, full livery..

Now, everyone on yard says he’s like a different horse from the one that arrived... he can still pull a face when we approach stable but as soon as we open the door the ears are forward.. he’s very chilled.. stands still.. good natured... works willingly when ridden.. he’s fab actually.

I can’t lie.. our other two horses are angels on the ground so it took a while to build a bond with this one but now we adore him 💕

Interestingly, he had to go into the vets for an ulcer scope a few weeks ago (all clear) and he reverted to his bargey behaviour when he was in there which really made me realise his issues at first were down to his insecurity (Despite his size) and his stress in unfamiliar situations.. it actually made me feel very protective towards my boy 💙

I was firmly in the send him back camp - I think if you are nervous handling him, this is not going to be easy, and if he is tricky for the yard staff he doesn't sound like an easy horse. The fact that he broke away when led in a chifney by someone experienced is concerning.

I have a cobx pony who was bargy and bolshy when he first arrived. It is anxiety driven (he is generally a bit scared of life) and he'd come from a quiet yard to a much busier livery one.

I am quite strict in the way I handle him - for the first three months or so, he was always tied up in the stable so he had no opportunity to barge. And if he was in a situation where he would pull back - e.g. Being washed with the hose, I'd have someone experienced hold him instead. It's all about setting him up for success, and then praising that success.

I've also taught him to back up whenever I enter the stable, using his feed. He now backs up on voice command, which is much safer for everyone.

He is better when he is in regular work (which has been tricky over the winter). If he has to use his brain for something else, then he has less energy to look for things to stress about. He's also worse when he is hungry. Is yours getting enough access to the hay in the field?

I'm always very assertive and no nonsense in my body language and he responds well to this.

However, he sounds like a less extreme version of yours. I think you need to find an instructor to help, and also just ensure that you're finding ways to set him up for success. I'd try and get him into regular work too, even if that means paying someone to ride.

Fwiw, mine is lovely but I wouldn't say he is a 100% novice ride for teenagers, especially hacking alone. But he has loads of great qualities and I have fun with him.

BTW, I would avoid Monty Roberts type stuff. Despite the way it is sold, it is not kinder than most of the traditional ways we do things in England (although it is much kinder than the way things used to be done in Western riding).

Join up type activities can be stressful/anxiety provoking for horses and this may not help him.

At the very least, don't do it without a proper experienced natural horsemanship expert to help you - as you may do more harm than good!

I agree with @SansaSnark about Monty Roberts. There's quite a lot of reasoned criticism of his methods. You can start here phys.org/news/2012-07-urge-rethink-monty-roberts-horse.html but there's other more recent stuff as well.

Whilst kinder than some older Western methods, it is fear-based. My horse will follow me around happily, but that's because he likes spending time with me, not because I chased him.

Great that you've decided to keep him but do get some professional help in asap - don't just rely on your YM as although I'm sure s/he means well what you said about your boy pissing off/bolting whilst being led in a chiffney made it sound a lot like the YM doesn't really know what they're doing ... like PPs said, great idea to do some groundwork, but be careful also with the Monty Roberts stuff if you are trying to self-teach it, no adverse comment here about NH or Monty Roberts in general but just like any other training method or aid you need to know what you're doing or you risk doing more harm than good, esp with an already stressed and confused horse. The Dually for instance is quite a harsh 'pressure release' aid and personally I wouldn't want to learn to use one from a youtube video... if you are comfortable lunging or long reining it might be better to stick with that in the immediate future.

Also, I get that you are trying to get him to associate the stable with nice things but if you are feeding him hard feed, I'd reduce that right away - even so called 'calming' mixes can contain loads of sugar and that can set off reactive types. If you want him to have something a handful of plain unmollassed chaff (with a calmer/supplements in it if you are using it) would probably be ample...

Yes, only feeding chaff and easy grass in a feed bowl (no hard feed). He’s been chilled for the last few days. Leading nicely, backing up, coming over in the field and following me around. I think he was very unsettled coming from living out to being in a stable for four days. He seems more like the horse he was when I tried him. I’ve been reading about joining up etc and have some reservations. Have got a couple of Kelly marks books coming. Half way through Monty Roberts. YO only used chiffney as he was really upset, she is v experienced and knowledgeable. She believes he has really improved and thinks he will be great in a few weeks.

I would also strongly advise against using join up with any domesticated horse. It's not a kind or reasonable thing to do to them at all. If you're interested in learning how to do things from a more horse-centric point of view, I'd recommend Mark Rashid's books. They're less "how to" manuals, more anecdotes and stories from his life training horses, but you can still learn tools and techniques for overcoming issues.

It's also important to be aware that some commercial calmers are magnesium based. Mg deficiences do cause stressed behaviours, but so can an excess of Mg. You don't routinely want to double up on it.

I've come on too to suggest reading Mark Rashid books. They are truly inspirational. I saw Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks a few years back and instantly fell out of love with them and their ideas. Please be careful about trying their methods and definitely use an instructor. But please get hold of Mark Rashid. Totally opened my eyes to the behaviour of my mare at the time xx

@Chocolatecakeandcoffee

Yes, only feeding chaff and easy grass in a feed bowl (no hard feed). He’s been chilled for the last few days. Leading nicely, backing up, coming over in the field and following me around. I think he was very unsettled coming from living out to being in a stable for four days. He seems more like the horse he was when I tried him. I’ve been reading about joining up etc and have some reservations. Have got a couple of Kelly marks books coming. Half way through Monty Roberts. YO only used chiffney as he was really upset, she is v experienced and knowledgeable. She believes he has really improved and thinks he will be great in a few weeks.

It's not about the fact that she used a chiffney, it's about the fact she then let him get away from her - which yes, is sometimes unavoidable, but is also hugely dangerous.

There are loads of instructors out there who will help with groundwork. Books are great but I don't think you can learn the timing needed just from books and videos. It's like someone saying that they want to learn to ride from books and YouTube videos.

I'm guessing the issue is you're not allowed outside instructors on the yard due to covid? But it's not long until they are allowed so I would hold off doing anything major until you can get someone on the ground to help you.

Yep just came in to say that whilst Monty Robert's is sold as 'natural' those methods rely on fear and stress responses -not something you want in a horse. See this link for a good science-based summary

equitationscience.com/equitation/position-statement-on-the-use-misuse-of-leadership-and-dominance-concepts-in-horse-training

Horses learn like any other animal - they repeat behaviours that result in favourable outcomes. The international society for equitation science has some good resources for riders wanting to learn more about how horses learn

www.horsewelfare.com

Thanks for those sources @Veterinari Always good to learn more where horses are concerned! It's great that more people are now using horse-centred methods and that there is scientific research into them.

'Natural' horsemanship, where it actually is kinder and more natural is great. It's picking your way through and working out which ones are based on fear and dominance and for me, binning them. My relationship with my horse was transformed when I started viewing him as a co-operative herd animal who wanted to be in tune with me. I then realised the barginess wasn't any attempt to dominate me but arose from fear and insecurity. I really don't want to whip up those fears.