How can there be no school for DS... (and what can we do re appeals/

[drspouse]

DS was in MS without an EHCP (told he had an MLD and to move him to generic specialist school) then MS with a v poor EHCP they weren't following (small school, 5 TAs per week, PEx, went to PRU in Jan 2020.
First 12 weeks went well, go ahead and look for another MS.
Then lockdown and he did 2 years of maths in 6 months and was OK on the days he was in because he was the only one there.
Then got really really scared of being in class - several very aggressive boys (which makes him aggressive and also makes him refuse class).
Now Y5. Has been kept in Y3/4 class (because the Y5 will "eat him alive"). Now in class most of the time.

No MS will take him. No RP units nearby. Awaiting call back from MS school due to start RP in a year in case they will take him now.

All independent specialist schools have either nonverbal/very low functioning children or else the same type of child who is in current Y5/6 i.e. v streetwise, traumatised, and deeply scary to DS.

Has ADHD. "Failed" 4 ASD screening tests. I suppose I could do another one and lie and get a private diagnosis but SALT says she only sees traits so not a given so can't be sure he'd get a place in ASD RP or school.

We think that MS with small school size, taught partly in small groups and partly in class with experienced 1:1 would be best (if no possible RP).

Best of the poor SEMH choice doesn't think they can meet need.
All MS schools say "but he's not in class full time".
He plays happily at church youth group and Cubs with a group unless it's too noisy. At school he won't even go on the playground.

How are all the schools able to say they won't take him? It just seems like he's being refused due to the adults not wanting to adjust to him, or they say "he's already failed at two MS so no" which seems to me to be saying "we plan to PEx him again".

Have found a great secondary school but again they seem to want him in class full time.

We were at the point where we wanted him MS because we wanted him to be able to have local friends (most SEMH schools are up to an hour away and almost no children come from our area) and because we wanted him to learn socialisation from children who don't have social communication problems, and because we wanted him at a school with a higher average number of GCSEs than 1.5.
We now want him in MS so he doesn't have to spend his days "being eaten alive". We have been told no by a couple of MS schools because they are one form entry and have a similar child(ren) in the same year. That is sensible but yet we are supposed to choose a school with 100% children of whom he will be scared.

He has no actual friends and because he keeps getting rejected he says he doesn't want any. If he was going to make friends at the SEMH schools he would have done so at the PRU where most of his previous class was also in since before lockdown.

How can all the schools refuse to take him? They just seem to be able to wave the magic "can't meet needs" wand and expect another school to take over.

LEA is worse than useless (they are currently trying to persuade us to take OT off his EHCP and just say "computer says no"). Won't even ring the two new RP schools for us ("but they haven't built anything yet... Erm the city Victorian school with a huge under used building is not building anything).

Sorry to clutter up Staffroom and thank you if you have read this far but my SENCO friend says maybe try the MP, or appealing (when he left the first MS we thought we never wanted him in a school that didn't want him but now we just want him SOMEWHERE). She thinks that mainstream with a 1:1 can work well.
Just wondering about admissions processes (appeals, complaints etc) and thought this might be better than the SEN boards.

Mainstream schools can't afford to run small groups on a semi-permanent basis any more. There used to be nurture groups in lots of schools, often with a QT in, which I think is what you want, but that is just not financially possible now.

I think I know what a nurture group is, and I'm not sure thIs is it. More a group from within the class overseen by DS TA. Who is specified in the EHCP.
The great secondary school does, incidentally, have a nurture class.

Would the point of that intervention just be that your DS was able to access a smaller group?

All of our MS interventions are now time bound and data driven- like 8 week block on securing phase 3 phonics, data at start and end then intervention finishes. We have ELSA groups, but they are in weekly blocks. We also have reactive intervention where some children are taken out for a re-teach on something they didn't get that day- likely to be different children every day.

There are no 'long term' small groups just because children find a small group easier. If you are going to MS school saying DS needs regular, long term access to a small group, I'm not surprised most places would not be offering that.

Your DS has displayed pretty significant challenging behaviour, but you don't want him to be educated alongside other children with challenging behaviour. That is going to be tricky to find. I run autism RP- many of the children placed in that have behaviour that is very challenging to adults, especially at first.

The reason they can refuse is because the level of support specified in the EHCP is beyond what most mainstream schools are able to offer.

I’m in leadership in a secondary school. We are continually trying to recruit TAs and are struggling hugely at the minute. We have several unfilled vacancies. It’s a struggle to meet the hours of our existing EHCP students and one member of the TA team being off sick can mean that we don’t have enough TAs to meet our legal obligations. It’s that tight. When we had 4 TAs off with covid a couple of weeks ago it was impossible to staff and even after cancelling maths and literacy interventions and other activities normally run by TAs we couldn’t meet all of the EHCP requirements. Lots of the schools just won’t have experienced 1-2-1s, capable of running small group teaching and not already committed to another child/children on their staff. They also know that recruiting a suitable person cannot be guaranteed.

We have plenty of students with EHCPs but we’d be giving the “can’t meet needs” response to an in-year admission request like this at the moment because we would just have no way to provide the support specified in the EHCP. We have a responsibility not to take on new students knowing that it would compromise provision for the students with additional needs that we already have a legal obligation towards.

I know that’s rubbish for people in your position so I hope you find something, but I do think you should consider specialist provision. They are likely to be the only places that can provide what he needs. That’s why the LA are suggesting removing things from his EHCP to get him into mainstream. If you really want him in mainstream then you need an EHCP with provisions that mainstream schools can reasonably be expected to provide with the staff that they have. If the EHCP specifies things that are only usually available in specialist provision then mainstream schools can just say that they can’t meet his needs. They are doing the right thing by doing that. It’s no good them taking him and then you later finding out that there aren’t enough TAs to give him all of his 1-2-1 hours, that there’s no small group teaching and a string of inexperienced TAs.

All of our MS interventions are now time bound and data driven- like 8 week block on securing phase 3 phonics, data at start and end then intervention finishes
But he doesn't need to be in a specific intervention group - he needs to be with e.g. the bottom writing table but with his TA in a quiet space, which is what he was doing in his first school, or with another child who has a 1:1.
I get what people are saying about recruitment (though there are good LEA employed TAs he gets on with at the current PRU so they could easily move with him, especially if it's within the same town) but the school doesn't need to have a TA on staff, the whole point of an EHCP with full time 1:1 is that a TA who actually has the relevant experience is employed, not Mrs Smith who's been working with the slow readers for 30 years, surely?

At ££££££ for independent specialist school it seems like it's an expensive way to traumatise him - if the PRU won't put him with his age mates because they are too much for him, what can a specialist school do that's different?

Sorry, that first part read wrong.
He doesn't need to be with a permanent small group. He needs to get to know the other children well enough not to be scared of them in a big group. Working in a small group with them first seems to work well for him.

I teach in a SEN school, MLD and ASD. Across the school there are children working at Age Related and children working at much lower levels. I have a fairly wide range in my class. Every lesson is planned and taught to make sure each child makes progress and to take into account their individual needs. Some of mine need to make 2 steps of progress each year. Some need to make 8 steps.

If there's independent specialist provision would take your DS (which I'm not clear on from your post, sorry), he will get access to personalised curriculum and support. We're fairly rural, but there are at least three similar schools within an hour. I'm sorry that doesn't sound like that's the case for you.

he needs to be with e.g. the bottom writing table but with his TA in a quiet space

This is now considered to be really bad practise because it separates the weakest children from the teacher.

*practice

Also, my TAs are amazing, some have qualifications, some don't, all have the children's welfare and education as their first priorities.

Additionally, they work in my school because they enjoy and value that ethos and environment. None of them would move to mainstream.

In my own children's school there are also wonderful TAs, some of whom have been there for 20-30 years. They work with children with a range of needs and are also excellent.

Exactly as 2reefs said - looking at it from the school's point of view, why should the other children in the group that you want to create be taught by your child's 1:1 TA rather than - as they should be - by the class teacher?

the whole point of an EHCP with full time 1:1 is that a TA who actually has the relevant experience is employed

Yes, but this has significant costs which are not fully covered by the EHCP. At the individual school level, they are not weighing this up against the cost for 'the system', they are weighing it up against their own (almost certainly extremely highly stretched) budget.

Great 1:1 TAs have a very specific skill set, are hard to recruit, have to be matched very carefully with a child and are not always interchangeable with class TAs or TAs who could 'teach a group'.

I would also agree with everything MdameMinimes says, but magnified for a primary school - a single member of staff off sick (and we have not had a full complement of staff yet this term) puts us at risk of breaking our legal responsibilities for 1:1 TAs, simply because we have no spare staff at all. Our budget does not allow for someone to be employed 'Just in case', and there is no supply available at all due to Covid.

@13luckyblackcats I'm sure your TAs are lovely but in his previous school the main TA (as well as the revolving door of other staff) was presented to us as "really experienced" yet both school and she admitted she had no experience with DS difficulties.
He has neither MLD nor ASD both of which seem to be reasonably well catered for. As I say, the independent specialist have a pupil group that is similar to the ones the PRU won't put him with for his own well-being (only many of them are even more traumatised since many of the boys at the PRU will be easy to get back into mainstream).

@2reefsin30knots that's interesting, as it was the main practice in his first school. Obviously with the teacher some of the time, but when other groups were working independently his group was with the TA.

So it really does sound like it's all down to budgets, and DS well-being can just get stuffed. Great 🤦

I was looking at this bit from your OP 'All independent specialist schools have either nonverbal/very low functioning children'/and trying to make the point that I have some children who could be described as such in my class, and some who aren't and that I differentiate for them all. Has that school said they wouldn't be suitable for your son?

One of the things my TAs and I all love about our job is the variety. Next year, I might have children at different levels with really different needs to this year. We all enjoy learning about the needs and getting to know the children individually, because we are all professionals.

I understand you and your DS have had difficult experiences with schools and I wish I had an answer.

Is his current school able to keep him or are they aimed at short placements? If he's in a class that suits him at the moment and he is in class most of the time, that sounds really positive. We have children from up to 3 Years in our classes, based on what's socially and educationally best for the child (say behavioural issues of child x and medical issues of child y mean they shouldn't be in the same class, for example).

@13luckyblackcats if you read on you'd see I said or else the same type of child who is in current Y5/6 i.e. v streetwise, traumatised, and deeply scary to DS
The PRU themselves have said he shouldn't be in a class with that type of child.

The current school is a short stay school and he's been there since Y3. We don't think they really get him, they won't let him go swimming, go on school trips, there are no extra curriculars (or if there are he isn't allowed to do them), and he has no friends.

but the school doesn't need to have a TA on staff, the whole point of an EHCP with full time 1:1 is that a TA who actually has the relevant experience is employed, not Mrs Smith who's been working with the slow readers for 30 years, surely?

At ££££££ for independent specialist school it seems like it's an expensive way to traumatise him - if the PRU won't put him with his age mates because they are too much for him, what can a specialist school do that's different?
Independent specialist schools are different from a PRU, even if frequently there is an overlap in cohort. Some children in PRUs needed to be in specialist schools much sooner and spend time in a PRU whilst the fight to get appropriate education is done. Other children in PRUs would not be appropriate for specialist provision and the PRU is right for them.
Just because there is a TA he likes in the PRU doesn't mean that the TA should move with him. The PRU will have recruited and trained that TA for their setting to work with their learners. It can be hard to recruit for PRUs at the best of times without them losing good staff each time a parent wants to redeploy someone for their DC.

The mainstream are doing the right thing by saying if they cannot meet your DC's needs based on what is in an EHCP. Saying yes when they know they can't puts them at risk of failing their legal obligations to existing children.

Whilst some parents like the idea of their DC and other weaker students sitting with a TA, what these children need is a qualified teacher. Good TAs are amazing, and I couldn't do my job without them, but they are not teachers.

It does sound like independent specialist education might be the best opportunity for your DC to get the provision you're seeking.

@drspouse ok, I read that as schools EITHER have one type of child OR the other, therefore was recommending you don't discount schools with lower ability students.

In your position I would definitely speak to my MP.

[quote 13luckyblackcats]@drspouse ok, I read that as schools EITHER have one type of child OR the other, therefore was recommending you don't discount schools with lower ability students.[/quote]
They all mostly have both.

@LolaSmiles you've confused me a lot here. How can a short stay school be right for any child? As a permanent place? We are only where we are due to COVID. We'd have moved ages ago if we'd had our way.
I just don't get how he can be JUST FINE with children with the same SEMH problems (only worse) in specialist but be "eaten alive" by a class of children with these problems of whom some are aiming to go back to MS in a different building?

drspouse
I didn't say a short stay school would be right long term.

I said that independent specialist education might be the best option based on what's in this thread if what is required is beyond what a mainstream can offer. It would be no good for your child to get into mainstream that cannot meet his needs.

There's often overlap between students in SEMH specialist provision and pupils in PRUs, but an SEMH school is not the same as a PRU and a PRU will have other children in who are not likely to be awarded a place at an independent SEMH school. There are some similarities in provision between the two school types but they are different types of schools. It's much more complex than the two school types having the same type of students because they happen to have similar SEMH issues.

What are the differences then?
Because the children at the SEMH schools have much greater trauma history (many are in care, failed at more schools etc). So I don't see how they can be less traumatising for DS.
All the children at the PRU have EHCPs, mainly for SEMH or ASD (I know this isn't always the case, but it probably should be).
I just cannot see how it will be any better 🤷

I don't understand how you're in a position to know the history of the pupils at the SEMH schools. That sort of information is normally only shared with relevant staff on a need to know basis. I also don't know how you know what all the children in the PRU have for their EHCPs. That information is not something that should be discussed with parents either. It worries me if staff are sharing information about cohorts of children to be honest.

Often students arrive at PRUs without EHCPs and the PRU is putting support in without having the same funding as independent specialist. My friend works in a PRU and said that they get given a fraction of the funding of an independent school to meet the needs of students. A student can be in their PRU in July and in the independent school from September, and the amount of money allocated to that child increases.

A school that knows it is only taking students with particular EHCP needs can design its whole school around those needs. A PRU takes any child who has been permanently excluded, which is very different. An independent SEMH school focuses on an education for a particular group of needs. A PRU will have students who stay PRU students until 16, students who want to go back to mainstream, students who can go back to mainstream after a short stay, students who need SEMH education, students who need special school education, students who will eventually go independent provision, students who will go on managed moves.

They're different schools.

My DS PRU ONLY has pupils who are short stay, normally. It is a primary school only and that is their policy.
There are only 8 boys in his year and apart from a couple of new/very short stay boys they have mainly been there since 2020 so I know the parents now.
I have chatted to them about destinations (apart as I say from a couple of new boys) and with one exception they are all going to SEMH or back to mainstream. Another parent would prefer specialist ASD so I think they are pushing for that though they were initially recommended SEMH.
There are also several at the best of the SEMH schools who have been at this PRU or children from other years going on to this one. The families I've connected with on social media from the SEMH school are the ones who've told me about the other pupils.

We are only talking about 15 children in the primary section of the SEMH school so from talking to two parents it's relatively easy to find out a lot about the pupils as well as the school.