How can there be no school for DS... (and what can we do re appeals/

[drspouse]

DS was in MS without an EHCP (told he had an MLD and to move him to generic specialist school) then MS with a v poor EHCP they weren't following (small school, 5 TAs per week, PEx, went to PRU in Jan 2020.
First 12 weeks went well, go ahead and look for another MS.
Then lockdown and he did 2 years of maths in 6 months and was OK on the days he was in because he was the only one there.
Then got really really scared of being in class - several very aggressive boys (which makes him aggressive and also makes him refuse class).
Now Y5. Has been kept in Y3/4 class (because the Y5 will "eat him alive"). Now in class most of the time.

No MS will take him. No RP units nearby. Awaiting call back from MS school due to start RP in a year in case they will take him now.

All independent specialist schools have either nonverbal/very low functioning children or else the same type of child who is in current Y5/6 i.e. v streetwise, traumatised, and deeply scary to DS.

Has ADHD. "Failed" 4 ASD screening tests. I suppose I could do another one and lie and get a private diagnosis but SALT says she only sees traits so not a given so can't be sure he'd get a place in ASD RP or school.

We think that MS with small school size, taught partly in small groups and partly in class with experienced 1:1 would be best (if no possible RP).

Best of the poor SEMH choice doesn't think they can meet need.
All MS schools say "but he's not in class full time".
He plays happily at church youth group and Cubs with a group unless it's too noisy. At school he won't even go on the playground.

How are all the schools able to say they won't take him? It just seems like he's being refused due to the adults not wanting to adjust to him, or they say "he's already failed at two MS so no" which seems to me to be saying "we plan to PEx him again".

Have found a great secondary school but again they seem to want him in class full time.

We were at the point where we wanted him MS because we wanted him to be able to have local friends (most SEMH schools are up to an hour away and almost no children come from our area) and because we wanted him to learn socialisation from children who don't have social communication problems, and because we wanted him at a school with a higher average number of GCSEs than 1.5.
We now want him in MS so he doesn't have to spend his days "being eaten alive". We have been told no by a couple of MS schools because they are one form entry and have a similar child(ren) in the same year. That is sensible but yet we are supposed to choose a school with 100% children of whom he will be scared.

He has no actual friends and because he keeps getting rejected he says he doesn't want any. If he was going to make friends at the SEMH schools he would have done so at the PRU where most of his previous class was also in since before lockdown.

How can all the schools refuse to take him? They just seem to be able to wave the magic "can't meet needs" wand and expect another school to take over.

LEA is worse than useless (they are currently trying to persuade us to take OT off his EHCP and just say "computer says no"). Won't even ring the two new RP schools for us ("but they haven't built anything yet... Erm the city Victorian school with a huge under used building is not building anything).

Sorry to clutter up Staffroom and thank you if you have read this far but my SENCO friend says maybe try the MP, or appealing (when he left the first MS we thought we never wanted him in a school that didn't want him but now we just want him SOMEWHERE). She thinks that mainstream with a 1:1 can work well.
Just wondering about admissions processes (appeals, complaints etc) and thought this might be better than the SEN boards.

I think what people are not getting here is that he needs friends and a normal childhood
I think posters are getting what you're saying, they're just pointing out that the provision you're wanting doesn't exist.

When I think of some pupils I've taught in mainstream, who were in mainstream because their parents insisted mainstream was all they'd consider, I can still remember some of them barely attending lessons, spending large sections of their day sitting in the social area of the SEN base calming down after leaving another lesson, having the bulk of their education being delivered by their 1-1 (usually level 2) TA based on whatever sheets could be collected that day/morning, not making a group of friends because they spent most of their time in the SEN base and not with peers from their year. The longer this went on for, the more others in the year group viewed them as 'one of the sen base children'. There was never nastiness, but those children didn't develop that sense of common experiences across their year group that other peers with SEN (who were able to be appropriately supported in mainstream) did.

I'm not convinced those children had the 'normal' childhood experience that you are hoping for DC.

we have no faith in any school

You didn't need to say more than that really.

My whole career has been based around complex challenging behaviour (I say that because not always 'SEMH'). I would not take a job in a PRU because the transient nature, and constant ingress of children who are an unknown quantity, makes it too hard to keep the place stable.

Specialist SEMH, with children on permanent placements, is a totally different bag. The children know they are staying so they can form trusting relationships and 'put their bags down'. The staff can get to know the children so well they can see a problem coming a mile off and adjust before it happens almost all of the time. A good majority of the children get to a place where resorting to challenging behaviour is extremely rare, if it happens at all.

YABU to listen to heresay from other parents. People love a drama and gossip.

Of course there are calm children in an SEMH school. Your child sounds like he would be one of them. They are calm because their SEMH needs are being met. Some might always be calm - many children have SEMH and impeccable behaviour.

The ideas laid out above seem sensible:

• Request a temporary placement at the SEMH school until end of year 6. They can support with his emotianal, social and mental health needs - presumably this is his main need according to his EHCP.
• Request your child stays at the PRU until end of year 6. This doesn't sound ideal to me, although you say he's doing better there. You have to acknowledge that if they've got him back to the state he was at in his first school, this means they've helped him through the challenges of being excluded twice.
• Keep pushing for mainstream but accept that your view of a TA working permanently with a group outside the classroom will not be acceptable to any decent school. It also won't reassure the secondary as they've said their concern is that he isn't in the classroom.
• Possibly a general special school if he is eligible. Again, this could be until end of year 6 only.
• Home educate

If it were my child, I would probably go for trying out a special school of some description. If his behaviour was enough to be excluded twice, he must have been struggling emotionally in mainstream. I wouldn't want to send my child back into an environment where he had struggled this much, especially as the schools are saying they can't meet need.

He wasn't excluded twice - his first school said he had an MLD because he was refusing the work they were giving him and because he can't write.

(So they told us we had to move him and we didn't know we didn't have to move him on their say-so...)

And yes, despite being really awkward and arguing, I do understand what you are saying.
It's just that it's all a huge risk for him.
If he fails again we have no further option.
If he retreats into himself and refuses to talk to any other children he will become depressed, I am certain of it.
If he doesn't make any academic progress now we will be left with a 16 year old who is hugely vulnerable to bad influences, at home, doing nothing and impossible to motivate (whereas now we have more power over him).
The attitude seems to be that specialist schools have a magic force field round them that enables children to do well.
There is no consideration that children copy what they see - and that being around dysregulated children will make him copy them. That being around children with huge social communication difficulties won't improve his social communication. There is no consideration that he isn't being encouraged to try difficult work by seeing others do this; it's all about "make it as easy [aka boring] as possible, oh he's bored, make it easier".

The PRU has very similar staff and attitudes (if a more transient population) to the SEMH schools. If we thought the "we know better than the parents" attitude was bad enough in the MS schools, it seems much worse in both the PRU and the SEMH schools.

Oh no your child is not anxious (the PRU). Oh your child must have something OTHER than other children that is making them anxious in the classroom. Could it be the classroom displays? (from one SEMH school). Oh every child has a behaviour chart, they are all exactly the same (other SEMH school). Oh no child needs to spend time out of the classroom (third SEMH school).

Ok, my bad with inferring this from your posts. He was still clearly struggling with something for them to suggest this. He struggled again at the second school and was excluded.

I'm just saying what I would do. I would want to avoid the trauma of another failed placement, so would avoid mainstream. A special school would be more likely to make it work.

I suspect that I have worked at mainstream schools where your son would have been well supported and I have worked at schools where he would have been excluded. Unfortunately, it is hard for parents to see from the outside which are which. You may stumble across the ideal mainstream for him, but you might end up with the wrong one. The system shouldn't be like this, but it is. My heart goes out to you and other parents navigating it.

You're not being awkward or arguing drspouse. You sound like a loving and caring parent who is exasperated by a system that is flawed.

SEMH schools don't have a magic forcefield. It's that a lot of children will do better in setting where their needs are met.

Take SEMH schools out of it for the purposes of a hypothetical story

Charlie and David were both in a PRU. Neither were finding it easy, both were having difficulties. Charlie had a list of challenging behaviour and a list of things that would help. In a PRU Charlie has around 50% of the list in place, is with others who are similar to him but all have their own lists. The PRU has lots of students coming and going. David is in a similar situation. The PRU are meeting 75% of his list, but the thing that would make the biggest difference can't be implemented. Both Charlie and David's parents are worried and know something needs to change.

Charlie goes to School A, where instead of catering to a % of Charlie's list, and a % of David's list plus a % of any number of other lists, the school is made up of 80% Charlie's. Instead of having to divert funds and training to a huge range of very different lists, School A focus their money on making sure that all Charlie lists can be ticked off. Other children are already established and feel safe at school A so their behaviour is positive and there is a positive culture.
In the PRU the children's behaviour was unsettled and it's hard to stick your head above the parapet when the dominant culture is more chaotic and you've not got a group of friends. Because the dominant culture is positive, Charlie realises this is somewhere he could settle and not have the burden of worrying about peers.
Charlie goes to School A and because his list is ticked off and he has stability, his behaviour improves. As his behaviour improves, he engages in learning more. As he learns more, he achieves and feels success. As he achieves and feels success, his self esteem improves. Charlie hasn't lost his additional needs, and he hasn't stopped needing an EHCP, and he hasn't lost any trauma that he has. He's just in an environment where he can thrive.
Charlie's parents could have sent him to School B where there's a huge range of pupils and thr school can only meet 40% of his list, but Charlie is unlikely to thrive in School B.

School A didn't have magical powers. They had stable children, probably stable staff, and the ability to tailor their resources to catering to students like Charlie.

I have done long term supply at a number of Sen and mainstream schools as well as 10 years experience in permanent contracts in mainstream. I have an adult SEN son.

The perfect setting does not exist. Many mainstream schools have high turnover of staff and very large cohorts.

MLD schools can be quite nurturing with small class groups. They may do entry level GCSEs. FE Colleges have SEN provision and for now your son will be entitled to free education up to 25 so could delay.

SEMH schools also tend to have smaller groups. They are nurturing and the one I have done most work in they have very strong boundaries that protect children and staff from the worst behaviours. They have more ambitious targets for GCSE.

SEN provision within mainstream would probably involve being in a smaller group which would have children with very challenging behaviours. High turnover of staff. Likely not to be entered for GCSE.

Grim choices. I would accept SEMH or MLD provision if it was offered. And give the school time. There is a huge difference between Year 7 and Year 11 behaviours in these settings. Yes your son will pick up undesirable behaviours. But he would in mainstream as well. And his own mental health will be better in a school where every adult knows who he is, what his interests are and are willing to be tolerant.

Good luck. I remember how awful the whole situation of waiting on Panels to make decisions was.

He wouldn't get a place in an MLD school. This was his first school not believing it was possible for them to be wrong.

Sorry for not realising MLD schools are off the possibility list.

I waited 2 years for a secondary decision to be made. I know this is all very stressful. Commiserations.

Is there a local SEN advocacy service to help you with the process?

All the MS schools will claim they can’t meet his needs - and honestly they probably can’t (they mean they can’t afford his needs). However an LEA appeal can FORCE them to take him. I imagine this is the route you will need to go.

So you want a mainstream primary then secondary, with a 1:1, where he doesn't have to be in the classroom all the time (so the school will need a spare space available at all times),
Do his assessments show he has average/high IQ? Over 85
A cohort, that will accept him and will be his friend
No disruptive children, that don't scare your son

In honesty, you may be lucky and find a primary that have a lovely year 5 class, that has space to fit another child physically into the classroom, is accepting of a child who hasn't been there until now who struggles to cope with different situations and has a 1:1 with them, whilst they are playing football (seems to be what most year 5 boys want to do at break. In 18 months, go to a bigger school, where they may set some or all subjects and unless in the top sets, will likely experience some disruptive behaviour from the other children in the class. So may end up working on their own with 1:1 most of the time.

In terms of friends, I would focus on out of school activities, like Cubs, where may find someone similar. You can't force children to be friends at this age, they know what they like and it is about finding like minded children, which may not be at school.

He doesn't spend long enough at any other groups to make friends - as above he went for 3 weeks to holiday club and at the end said he had a friend. So that's 3 weeks x 30 hours = 90 hours which would take 60 weeks of Cubs i.e. two years.
This is why home ed would not work, he would never see any other children for long enough.

His assessments are spiky but range from 20th centile to about 60th i.e. he's doing better than between 20% and 60% of other children.

We have found exactly this school (dip in his year group, has a lot of children coming and going so used to new children, lots of space outside the classroom, more in fact than the best of the SEMH schools. Has a DC with ASD in his year group and the children all get a turn to do a special activity with him each week and they all vie for it). But they won't take him due to his previous failure in mainstream.
Given he was forced to change schools in Y2 and then excluded a term later (he wasn't even in school for a full term) how long exactly is he supposed to do penance before he's allowed to try mainstream and make some friends? Is this a life sentence or does he get a reprieve at some stage?

I feel for you, but remember in secondary, in mainstream, he won't be in the same class as other pupils consistently, or sitting with the same people, plus they are not "socialising" in class and he will have an adult with him, so only have 1 other pupil next to him. Also he will be in classes with disruptive pupils. In a specialist school, he will likely be in a consistent group, to give opportunity, plus with like minded pupils, who may need support to make friends.

My children have just moved to specialist and already have a great group of friends who "get" their difficulties, however, unlike others at the school, had plenty of friends at their previous school. They can make a friend, in an afternoon at the park, so obviously don't have the social issues, but the main positive for them, has being in a place that understands their struggles and are set up to meet their needs and in the conversations we have had with the school, particularly regarding 1, despite being very high in some areas, top 2%, others they are bottom 1%, would end up in classrooms with too many distractions for them to learn, because it would be the lower groups (which I also know from experience and hence the move).

Can you find an sen club for him, our area has some. But for some children, school is not a friendly place and is terrifying when faced with several hundred older and bigger pupils, who are rough in the corridors with their general messing around being teenagers.

It maybe you need a boarding school, not ideal, but would give opportunity for friends and dependingon distance, could be weekly, such as muntham (just 1 I am aware of, but know has pupils achieving GCSE's and take a wide range of need)

Why don't you just name the mainstream you want? If they do say no, the LA might name anyway. If not, you can go to tribunal.

However, if it doesn't work out, you need to think back that everybody involved told you that he needed specialist before you blame the school.

The mainstream we want has already said no. I would be interested in pursuing more what they need (given the cost of independent specialist they could get a lot of staff for that money!) and/or going to tribunal. DH is less sure.

The SEN clubs are for teenagers and/or those with PMLD. Everything is for ASD as well (Teenage ASD club. Preschool ASD club. Nothing for primary age and nothing if you don't have ASD).

They won't get the money equivalent of the specialist, they have to fund the 1st £6000. They probably don't have a room he can use with a 1:1, our primary doesn't, without impacting on the education of all the other children (most schools, don't have that spare space).

They do have loads of spare space (floor area outside classrooms is as much as inside). They will also get his PP+ if we are getting down to the last couple of £K but compared to the cost of the specialist that's peanuts frankly and if they need that last couple of £K we'd fight for that.

Have they said no via formal LA consultation process?

In an earlier post you said schools 4-8 hadn't replied or had called another school instead of you and you were waiting for a call back from 9 & 10. They are not supposed to talk/ agree/ not agree a place with you. It should all go through the LA. They can't not reply to a formal consultation- they have 15 days and if they don't reply the LA take it as a yes. A 'no' on the phone to you doesn't mean a 'no' in a formal consult as at that point they actually have to demonstrate that they can't meet the specifics of the EHCP.

I can and do describe the provision we offer to prospective parents, but I am not allowed to advise parents about whether my setting would suit their child. I definitely would not read a child's EHCP until it came in a formal consult.

How many consultations have the LA put out? They can scattergun because a 'yes' doesn't mean you have to name that placement.

They asked us which schools we were interested in after we visited and in some cases made a follow up call or email.
Schools 9 and 10 we haven't got as far as a visIt. They are both either definitely or likely having an RP in the near future but the useless SENDO just said "oh I haven't bothered to call as it isn't open yet".
Schools 4 through 8 we either visited and decided no or we didn't visit because they never called us back.
I assume the LEA SENDO sending them the EHCP counts as formal consultation? That's where we are with favoured school (that said no), at least one other (that said no) and the one that's really too far (but didn't respond).

Go to tribunal for the school you want but you won't be able to make demands for your ds that are not in the EHCP. You should also be careful about putting stuff in the EHCP that the school may say to the tribunal that they can't deliver. So if you say they must have a separate group made up of your ds and some other children they will say no. Whilst you can get 1:1 support it will be on the basis that he works in the classroom as a starting point. If you know that it will fail with a 1:1 TA in class for the majority of the time then you are potentially risking another exclusion or managed move. I get that it is very difficult but you have to look at the reality of what is out there rather than what you wish it was like.

It already has most of that (mainstream, 1:1, small group working for part of the time, need for a separate space though mainly as a cool down area). We have not bothered asking schools that don't have this (some told us over the phone, some we looked at).

@drspouse, it may seem really obvious but is your Virtual School helping you in this matter? If not, they really ought to be as Virtual Schools are now legally obligated to help PLAC as well as LAC. What about your local adoption agency? And the director of children’s services?