How can there be no school for DS... (and what can we do re appeals/

[drspouse]

DS was in MS without an EHCP (told he had an MLD and to move him to generic specialist school) then MS with a v poor EHCP they weren't following (small school, 5 TAs per week, PEx, went to PRU in Jan 2020.
First 12 weeks went well, go ahead and look for another MS.
Then lockdown and he did 2 years of maths in 6 months and was OK on the days he was in because he was the only one there.
Then got really really scared of being in class - several very aggressive boys (which makes him aggressive and also makes him refuse class).
Now Y5. Has been kept in Y3/4 class (because the Y5 will "eat him alive"). Now in class most of the time.

No MS will take him. No RP units nearby. Awaiting call back from MS school due to start RP in a year in case they will take him now.

All independent specialist schools have either nonverbal/very low functioning children or else the same type of child who is in current Y5/6 i.e. v streetwise, traumatised, and deeply scary to DS.

Has ADHD. "Failed" 4 ASD screening tests. I suppose I could do another one and lie and get a private diagnosis but SALT says she only sees traits so not a given so can't be sure he'd get a place in ASD RP or school.

We think that MS with small school size, taught partly in small groups and partly in class with experienced 1:1 would be best (if no possible RP).

Best of the poor SEMH choice doesn't think they can meet need.
All MS schools say "but he's not in class full time".
He plays happily at church youth group and Cubs with a group unless it's too noisy. At school he won't even go on the playground.

How are all the schools able to say they won't take him? It just seems like he's being refused due to the adults not wanting to adjust to him, or they say "he's already failed at two MS so no" which seems to me to be saying "we plan to PEx him again".

Have found a great secondary school but again they seem to want him in class full time.

We were at the point where we wanted him MS because we wanted him to be able to have local friends (most SEMH schools are up to an hour away and almost no children come from our area) and because we wanted him to learn socialisation from children who don't have social communication problems, and because we wanted him at a school with a higher average number of GCSEs than 1.5.
We now want him in MS so he doesn't have to spend his days "being eaten alive". We have been told no by a couple of MS schools because they are one form entry and have a similar child(ren) in the same year. That is sensible but yet we are supposed to choose a school with 100% children of whom he will be scared.

He has no actual friends and because he keeps getting rejected he says he doesn't want any. If he was going to make friends at the SEMH schools he would have done so at the PRU where most of his previous class was also in since before lockdown.

How can all the schools refuse to take him? They just seem to be able to wave the magic "can't meet needs" wand and expect another school to take over.

LEA is worse than useless (they are currently trying to persuade us to take OT off his EHCP and just say "computer says no"). Won't even ring the two new RP schools for us ("but they haven't built anything yet... Erm the city Victorian school with a huge under used building is not building anything).

Sorry to clutter up Staffroom and thank you if you have read this far but my SENCO friend says maybe try the MP, or appealing (when he left the first MS we thought we never wanted him in a school that didn't want him but now we just want him SOMEWHERE). She thinks that mainstream with a 1:1 can work well.
Just wondering about admissions processes (appeals, complaints etc) and thought this might be better than the SEN boards.

(And yes, I know it sounds like a bit of a local mafia. It's quite a small tight knit area of quite a large county. Plus we have all been on the same parent carers forum Zoom meetings in lockdown. What can I say?)

That makes sense Dr. I was really concerned that staff had shared that sort of information. My friend's PRU is secondary and there isn't the same sort of supportive parent network that you have.

I wouldn't rule our SEMH schools if they're good and mainstream can't meet DC needs. As a teacher my heart has gone out to some students over the years who were in mainstream when it wasn't right for them. I know I did my very best for them, but I still felt they didn't get the support that would have helped them thrive.

What reasons do the PRU give for not taking him swimming and on trips?

@2reefsin30knots

What reasons do the PRU give for not taking him swimming and on trips?

He's the only Y5 in his class, and the fully Y5 class is the one going. I thought originally it was a mixed class going, and that he wasn't the only Y5 going but every single other Y5 is going. He was asked about going on the school trip, which was all outdoors stuff. He loves Cubs but he said to the DHT "if I go I will hit them all" which would be completely out of character (he wasn't coping in class at the time but his modus operandi is to run off or hit adults that get in his way). DHT just said no. We saw pictures and he would have loved it. Like many other children he's missed out on swimming during lockdown and is now very nervous. He really needs to go. I also suspect he's mIssed out on sex ed. They also say "oh some Y5 and 6 have music lessons" but don't offer them to him (he loves music). Mainly they just say "it's too much for him" but he has a long history of coping well with fun things, trips, performances etc. rather than core learning. Of course apart from trips (outdoors type) they have none of the kind of thing he likes at the SEMH school. No science GCSEs, no MFL (it's 7-16 - he also loves learning languages), it's all football (which he hates) and a bit of art (which he likes but won't show anyone because he's dyspraxic).

I honestly feel like we do all his core learning anyway (by making him do it at home) plus all trips, all sports (currently nothing), arts (ditto nothing), we learn a language at home. The least school could do is put him with children he wants to be friendly with and isn't scared of.

Your most recent update sounds like you’re already doing a lot of home schooling. Is there a strong homeschooling network in your area? Could you attend a few events and see if your ds could make friends there? I’m not sure what support is available for homeschoolers but I think there is an area on mn for them so I’m sure they could tell you. It might be a solution seeing as it sounds like you’re already doing it.

There is absolutely no homeschooling network in our area (apart from a play meet up for preschool/Reception, and a self-organised art group for teenagers 20 miles away) and we both work.

DS would never go out of the house if he could help it - going to school each morning is the only way we can keep him sane. He would literally never see another child if we home educated.
This half term he was supposed to go to the holiday club DD goes to but the organiser couldn't find a 1:1 for him (none of the school TAs wanted to do it and she is complaining she's short staffed generally so of course DS misses out. They had funding for children with SEMH in the summer holidays but he got 4 days total because she moved his 1:1 to another group). He has a few hours with a regular babysitter we have but that's him and her and no other children. He won't speak to another child apart from DD until he goes back to school, and we have just about managed to get him out of the house with her for an hour a day.
So he needs school in order to see other children and learn to get along with them. If they are scaring him then he is not going to want to be near them, let alone be friendly with them.

where "with her" = "with the babysitter".

He went to the library with the babysitter yesterday and asked her if she'd speak to the library staff for him.

As you say you have identified a good secondary school for your DS, what you are looking for is the best option for him for the remainder of Y5 and for Y6.

That option needs to prepare him for being mainly in class with others, but with 1:1 adult support - my understanding is that the secondary school is not one with any specific provision for SEMH, so while there may be times he can spend in the SEN department, the expectation is that for most teaching he will be with his class.

Which of the options that you have available seem most likely to prepare him for this?

Remember that you cannot control or dictate who else is in his class, nor ask for changes that impact on children other than your DS, as schools - rightly - have to consider the needs of their current students just as you - rightly - are focusing on your child's needs.

Any placement is going to be a compromise, as though you might want 'the system' to change the way it works as you feel it would be better for your DS, it is not realistic to demand that it does so. This isn't because the schools you would like to be able to consider 'don't care'. They are legally required to care for the children they currently have - and are doing so.

Things like trips or swimming, though I can see they are heartbreaking for you, can't be the over-riding consideration. If your DS stays until next year in his current setting, will he then progress into the Y5/6 class and go with this current cohort as a 'Y6 placed in Y5'? Would that be one option? You say he is mainly in class at the moment, so in that way it is preparing him appropriately for the secondary you would like him to go to.

Which of the options that you have available seem most likely to prepare him for this?
The secondary school seemed to think he needed to be in a mainstream primary to be able to cope with mainstream secondary (the primary schools have however generally been much less open to the idea of nurturing than this secondary! I can only assume that secondaries are used to e.g. mopping up children who didn't learn to read at all in primary whereas primary schools seem just to want to get rid of them and blame the child instead of the school.)
This is one of the reasons we wanted an RP.

We worry that if he stays at the PRU it will break him. The cohort is becoming less constant (I think the ones who entered in early 2020 with him will be the last ones to stay more than a year, so he will be in a class with an entirely short stay population until probably mid-Y6 when they usually don't try to re-integrate).
Plus they are not actually educating him - he is being given work that's at the level of his classmates (or none at all) combined with work that's too difficult for him (aka writing) which makes him give up so then they say "oh he needs easier work because he's refusing".

They are quite flexible on the composition of classes so I don't think that part will be an issue but all the children will be those only staying 6-12 weeks, hence more disruption (which the PRU first said "isn't a reason for him to be disrupted" and now say "he will of course be disrupted by these children by simple merit of them being on short placements and it's got nothing to do with their underlying needs and behaviours").

He will also continue to have no friends. And he already says he doesn't want friends, nobody needs friends, after all his disastrous experiences, wouldn't you give up before you failed?

The independent specialist, as we see it, would not help with either friendship (if he is scared of the children or if he is unable to see them out of school in a relaxed atmosphere), or things that will make him enjoy school (trips, fun etc.). They do state that their aim is to bring children back to mainstream but if the mainstream then won't take them due to their lack of experience in mainstream that doesn't help us.

Where is your nearest state special school for SEMH?

I don't think it is possible to say that there is a universal 'pattern' in where children thrive in terms of transfer to secondary, and so I don't think it's fair to say that secondary schools 'mop up' while primaries 'want to be rid'. Just from my own experience from a small number of schools, I know of:

• Successful special school primary to mainstream secondary
• Successful unit within a mainstream primary to both mainstream or special school secondary
• Successful mainstream primary to special school secondary
• Successful mainstream primary, unsuccessful mainstream secondary, successful transfer to special school secondary
• Unsuccessful mainstream primary, PRU, successful mainstream primary, unsuccessful mainstream secondary, PRU

The key variable in success / lack of success is NOT the school - it's the child.

I would say that, again in my experience, successful mainstream primary followed by unsuccessful mainstream secondary is MUCH more common than the reverse, suggesting that in fact primary schools often successfully include children who then do not manage in the secondary school environment unless there is a specific unit within that secondary.

I appreciate that this is not helpful when you have a child who is not in a mainstream primary, but I do think you need to think very carefully about how, for a child whose 'modus operandi is to run and to hit adults in the way', as you say, but who is afraid of other disruptive children, that is likely to be managed in a secondary school environment.

(I am sorry, I missed out the fact that by far the most common, for children with 1:1 support throughout mainstream primary, is a successful transfer to mainstream secondary)

Where is your nearest state special school for SEMH?
The nearest primary in our county is over an hour away. I suspect this is why so many in this category are in the PRU long term.

The secondary ones are all Inadequate or had two pupils with GCSEs in the last 3 years.

We will not consider any of them.

I hear what you are saying about primaries and secondaries but after so many primaries have said "oh, if he's not achieving at age expectations wouldn't you want him in the MLD school?" (when he's 1-2 years behind except in writing) where the secondary schools say "oh well, we have the nurture class and we do phonics and bus timetables and arithmetic" all of which he can already do... maybe we have just found more inclusive secondaries and more rigid primaries?

I would say I've seen a similar range of experiences as cantkeepawayforever, plus successful primary, several unsuccessful secondary schools, successful PRU or AP setting where the child was able to gain entry to college after.
Successful mainstream primary followed by unsuccessful mainstream secondary is more common than the other way round in my experience.

Secondary nurture groups tend to be focused (in my experience though no school is the dame) either on additional English/Maths, delivering a group that is similar to a KS2 primary group, or a smaller group that does most of what other classes do with different teachers with a little more social and emotional input. For Year 7 a lot of the funding is likely to come from catch up funding and those groups don't always run for the full 5 years the children are in school.

I am genuinely surprised about the primaries.

In general, children who transfer to MLD special schools from where I work are at least 4-5 years behind in all areas - and even then, there is a waiting list of up to 2 years once the SS has agreed they should be admitted. So children who transfer after Y6 tend to have been accepted by the end of Y4 and at that stage be working at Y1 level across the board.

It is worth finding out from the secondary about what they mean by 'inclusion' if they say that they offer these things BUT also want him to be in class full time. If it means - as it has in at least 1 case i am aware of - 'spends almost all their time in the SEN department working 1:1 with a TA, with little input from qualified teachers and almost no contact with age group peers, because of being unable to access the curriculum', then that is not inclusion. Equally, if they are in class full time, when are phonics, arithmetic, life skills etc being done?

There are, of course, a number of complicating issues with your son, though - a child is not PEx for academic needs alone, and it sounds as if their EHCP is extensive and quite specialist. It is unlikely that a single school setting will be able to perfectly offer the mix of academic, social, emotional and behavioural support that he needs, nor provide exactly the selected peer group in which he might thrive best.

This is especially the case when all schools are stretched to the limit by lack of funding, hugely increased needs due to lockdown and the needs of their existing pupils - many schools have pupils in them who would even a few years ago have easily accessed specialist places, and are routinely dealing with behaviour that would once have been extremely rare.

I know that you may not WANT to consider certain schools. However, you have to weight them up against the alternatves that you have - is it better to travel a long way or be in an unsuitable setting? Is it better to be in a school whose academic aspirations do not match yours - remembering that your child can always move before GCSEs if it is a good route towards the re-integration that you seek in the shorter term? Is it better for him to be with his age peers, even if their behaviour is challenging, or to miss out on his year group curriculum? If you are rigid in your requirements, but are expecting schools to be exceptionally flexible, that's not going to result in a school place. It may be that both sides have to flex a bit, to achieve a result that is not perfect but s better than alternatives.

What do you mean when you say all the mainstream schools say no? Is it a case of a formal consultation and they have read the echp and said they can't meet needs?

I think, fwiw based on this thread, that you have 3 options:

1. Identify the mainstream school that you feel is best able to meet most of his needs (WITHOUT rearranging the way that they do things, e.g. creating TA-led groups that they don't already have), adapting the detail of your DS's EHCP if necessary if there are things that you are prepared to 'let go', so that a mainstream school is more likely to be able to meet those that are left. Appeal if the school says they cannot meet his needs. Be prepared to work collaboratively and flexibly with the school to find the best way through the inevitable challenges.

1. Explore all the special schools available that might be able to offer him a place for the remainder of primary - even if longer term they do not meet your academic aspirations - and seek a place in one of those until the end of Year 6. It may be that they cannot offer a place for months / years anyway, in which case this is not a realistic option.

1. Accept his current placement will be longer term than is ideal, and work with the secondary of your choice to make sure that you and the two schools communicate as much as possible about his needs so that his start in secondary can be as smooth as possible and the likelihood of a further failed placement is as small as possible.

@Stevenage689

What do you mean when you say all the mainstream schools say no? Is it a case of a formal consultation and they have read the echp and said they can't meet needs?

They have said no based on: 1: he's not managing in the PRU so he won't manage here (last school year)

1. he's not in class and he won't cope full time in a class of 30 (last school year when he wasn't but they will say not enough progress made)

1. he's failed in two mainstreams and he will fail again and we can't meet need (they at least looked at the EHCP but were the most promising which is very annoying)

4. have never replied but really are too far
   5 through 8 approx) never replied/rang original school instead of us/horrified us with their attitude to SEN.
   9 and 10) may soon have RP but awaiting call back.
   Of course we've wasted ages waiting for the SENDO at the LEA to tell us they have done nothing because reasons.

5. (original school) he's WAY BEHIND and needs to go to the MLD school and he's in Y2 doing nursery level work (he was reading at Y1 level, doing maths at home at Y1 level but refusing in school and couldn't write because, doh, he has dyspraxia. The OT said that's really common for schools to label MLD when children can't write).
   This is what I mean @cantkeepawayforever about the expectations of primaries as well as the PRU who keep banging on about how he needs an individualised curriculum and no mainstream can provide that. I genuinely don't think he does - we know at least one of the primaries said academically he would be ahead of many and though he can't do NC Y5 English if I give him a Y3 comprehension he can have a good go at it, he reads to himself, knows his times tables apart from 7 and 12. He just can't write for toffee.

as well as the PRU who keep banging on about how he needs an individualised curriculum and no mainstream can provide that.

This really leaps out at me. If the setting he is currently taught in states his needs as being these, then that's really key information. You said in previous posts that they are right about placing him in a class away from children he might be scared of, that they are managing to keep him mainly in class, and that he has TAs who know him well and who you trust - all of which suggests to me that, of everyone involved in this they know his needs IN SCHOOL as well as anyone.

It is really common for children to be able to do more 1:1 at home than then do in school, but if those who know him best and are currently teaching him are saying that he needs a more individualised curriculum than a mainstream school could provide, then that is a viewpoint definitely worth taking into account.

We don't think they are, though. They refused to believe he was anxious about going to school when he was wrapped around my legs under my cardigan. The maths they do with him at school is way below what he's capable of and they send home reading books that are tedious and too easy for DD (who is two years younger and more than that behind DS academically.
They insist he has ASD when four professionals have said he doesn't meet criteria, but has social anxiety. They insisted he wasn't affected by lots of his class mates moving on at the end of last year when we thought he was, they NOW say he's unsettled because of other children coming and going and not because of their behaviour.
When he came home and said another boy had told him he was going to kill DS and that he was happy our cat died they gave a tinkly laugh and said "oh they are so similar, they bounce off each other".

I think you have been given good advice from cantkeepawayforever. Mainstream schools are going to look at his current provision and see if he is coping well. Whatever you think about the cohort the pru has much more capacity to individualise and meet your ds needs than a busy mainstream secondary as would an independent specialist school. You do sound like you want to make a specialist placement in a mainstream school. This just doesn't exist and there isn't the finding for it. I was in a similar position with my dd when she was in mainstream primary. I realised eventually that she was better off at a specialist school. She is thriving there. It isn't everything I would want but it is a place she can be herself.

"oh they are so similar, they bounce off each other".
What she means there is that your DS says just that sort of thing to other children.

as well as the PRU who keep banging on about how he needs an individualised curriculum and no mainstream can provide that.
I think you would be unwise to ignore this. You could name a mainstream and go to tribunal for the place, you would likely win- most tribunals are upheld, but all the professionals involved are trying to tell you it's not going to work.

I think you need to accept your DS for who he is. He has very complex emotional needs and some really significant challenging behaviour. You seem to be trying to push this reality away by blaming the settings he is in- saying they are negligent or don't 'get' him, or by blaming the other children he is with.

In your shoes I would name a specialist school and then try to work with them for your DS. It is likely that a package could be created there where he could have a combination some 1:1 time and integration into a class group of quieter, calmer children. I worked for a long time in a very specialist primary SEMH with pupils with severely challenging behaviour. It was an incredibly calm place. There were incidents, but they were dealt with quickly and calmly and away from the other children. There was less disruptive behaviour in lessons than you find in a standard mainstream class, because the staff were all over it, knew the children inside out and keeping them calm and engaged in learning was constantly the top priority.

There are ways further down the line to ensure he can access appropriate qualifications at KS4, whether that is moving again or accessing a college via his specialist placement.

What she means there is that your DS says just that sort of thing to other children.
Unless they are brushing it under the carpet, he doesn't. I would assume they'd tell us, he's never said that to another child in another setting (well, except saying he hates his sister). They have always told us specifics at the PRU if he's acted up with a teacher and at his previous schools they've told us if he's pushed another child (e.g. in Y2 at his first school this happened approx 3 times).
I don't think they should be minimising the effect on him of being told things like this, they appear to be ignoring it and hoping he forgets.
How does that help him to trust us or trust his teachers? He tells us this, clearly a big disclosure and very distressed, and we say we'll do something and then school just wave it away.

I think what people are not getting here is that he needs friends and a normal childhood.

I would say that's his primary need because we have no faith in any school to actually educate him.

If the school has no peer group (are there calm children in an SEMH school? Why are they there if they are calm?) how can he make friends?

Last summer he went to a holiday club and after three weeks he finally said "my friend".

It takes him a long time and even where he's got on with some of the children at the PRU he won't admit they are his friend.

They are calm because they are having their needs net. Of course there may be occasional dysregulations, but in a good SEMH school the vast majority of the children will be happy and calm the vast majority of the time.

They are there, because in another setting they wouldn't be having their needs met and would be dysregulated.

That does make sense... but also says to me that the PRU is not the right place for any of the children there...

DS is better there than he was in his previous school but he is honestly no better (at least, not from the reports they give us, unless they are actually telling us nothing) than he was in his first MS school.

(But it also says to me that none of the SEMH schools are any good - because reports from parents are that they are NOT calm, that there are huge problems with aggression, drugs, sexism, harassment of girls, pupils refused access to transport, refused permission to go on trips, sanctioned for not doing work by having detentions. So that leaves us in no better position.).