The Sixty Third Republic - as we glide into staycations the DfE whip up anti-school media storm

[StaffRepFeistyClub]

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Well the evidence does seem to say that so yes, I think parents being aware early on and having choices about what support is offered and being able to find out what has been influencing this is important. The vast majority of children suffering from gender dysphoria desist generally but if the child is accessing services that are all about affirming without any exploration of other issues eg. sexual abuse, eating disorders, comorbid mental health or developmental issues etc which the school doesn't know about and doesn't inform the parents so they can look into it and make choices about how to support their child with dysphoria then that's a massive failure of duty of care.

Yep and in the future I wonder if we'll see schools subjected to legal action because they didn't inform parents, the child was being influenced, advised by eg. a trans group without parental consent and the child went onto transition and later regret their choice and wishes the school had told their parents so they could have accessed proper unbiased mental health support then...

The school would have some liability in a scenario like that.

I don't think we give them any support or resources. We just bung a new name on SIMs and then carry on... which is pretty poor really.

I know but we also don't inform parents so that they can look into getting them support and therefore? No support - no exploration of issues. Where's the duty of care?

@noblegiraffe

If it’s simply experimenting with gender expression then I don’t see why teachers need to indulge it and if it’s a serious response to mental distress then parents need to be a part of it.

This.

I thought about this a lot whilst taking DS to school, getting petrol and returning!

1 If this is happening quite often, as it seems from MN and experiences here, I’m really surprised if no parents have made a legal challenge to it - a bit like Mrs Gillick in the 80s re contraceptive advice without parental consent.

2 There are no other safeguarding issues where it is believed that a parent may be a source of potential serious harm to a child where we don’t investigate fully, which involves talking to the parents. Maybe not immediately, but pretty quickly.

Why so with this one? Imagine if we knew a parent was mistreating a child purely because they were a girl - something that was about their very being. Would we allow that to continue? No.

I’ve written and rewritten this a few times as it is hard to find exactly parallel issues. I recognise that this (may be?) a unique issue.

Also, when and if Gav et al get to hear of schools doing that, I can’t imagine they’d countenance “schools taking away parents’ rights”. Although if it’s been in the DM they must already know about it?

It is a fundamental change to the role and powers of the education system.

I know the counter argument to some of the points made above is “Some parents wouldn’t in a million years access support for a child in that situation, far from it!”, as Iam pointed out.

But we cannot end up, essentially, lying to parents.

Tbh if, as all research shows, the majority of children desist from gender dysphoria and it is a mental disorder that they get through and are glad they didn't act on in the vast majority of cases then assuming a child is 'trans' when they exhibit signs of gender dysphoria is a purely political rather than medical or data driven act.

When we know there are organisations out there who are intent on affirming and pushing along transition in children who show any sign of dysphoria and that those organisations are readily available online and happily push their agenda on kids without any informing of parents then if we don't tell parents and don't offer and unbiased and evidence based support then we're failing kids massively who are suffering from gender dysphoria and pushing them into the arms of groups who act in direct contradiction to the data and evidence and only offer one route which is affirmation and encouragement despite the fact that the vast majority of those children do not go on to be trans if not driven down that route.

To me the closest analogy is body dysmorphia which can lead to anorexia and there are massive online forums encouraging anorexic or otherwise disordered and dangerous eating/not eating and cheering each other on. Would we as schools do nothing about a child with body dysmorphia around weight and not inform their parents and not expect to be sued?

We always used to have to use full given names on reports, no shortenings or nicknames, so Benjamin instead of Ben even. I wouldn’t feel comfortable using preferred name/pronouns that hadn’t been approved by parents, since the report is addressed to parents rather than the child

I know the comparison with anorexia is unpopular but it too is body dysmorphia and we take it seriously and challenge it to try to help people accept the body they are in and explore and unpick the processes that make them believe that they are eg. fat when they're actually underweight and we wouldn't dream of keeping it secret from parents because their 'identity' and how they feel about their body is sacred.

A child having sex dysphoria is an issue that needs addressing psychologically just like any other mental issue. Whatever outcome comes from that down the line AFTER that psychological support and exploration has been given is another matter (and none of our business as schools) but safeguarding and ensuring children with mental disorders (and keep in mind the fact that the vast majority of children who go through sex dysphoria don't grow up to be trans) are taken care of by informing parents and where necessary other agencies IS our business. It's the core of our business and if we don't do it why on earth should parents trust us?

Right sorry - too much posting but I feel really strongly about this and was hoping that things like the Keira Bell case would open people's eyes to the fact that we are failing kids by just auto going along with things rather than exploring with them and helping them understand themselves and unpick the issues at play before they make any decisions.

I’m struck by the near-religious fervour with which some (not by any means all, but a few vicious people do set the tone) trans advocates attack those who disagree with them. JK Rowling and others have had it expressed that they should “die in a fire”. It reminds me of the burning of heretics in the past. (I was made to learn and recite the horrific deaths of the female martyrs my school houses were named after. Mine was pressed to death.) Rape and mutilation often feature as well. No wonder people are frightened to say anything.

It's utterly bizarre. Saying someone is not biologically female is 'literal violence' and people literally get banned from social media and have been interviewed by the police for it but flagrantly telling women to die in a fire, choke on my lady dick, I hope you get raped etc is fine apparently.

I think schools should be staying out of it and handing over to parents and doctors.

On a totally different note has Sarah Shahi been cloned from Sandra Bullock?

Tbh, I think a few of our gender neutral pupils are just experimenting and (this will probably make me sound old!) want to be ‘cool’. The names they have adopted are Gods/Goddesses which confuses me as they have adopted a non-gender neutral name. Although Gods/Goddesses aren’t mortal so maybe exempt from gender.

Keira Bell case honey?

Sorry in a rush for work now after dawdling. Have a google - she took court action against Travistock after being unquestioningly affirmed and put on blockers then cross sex hormones which led her down a path to surgery etc. Pretty landmark case. There will be many more to come I'm sure.

Maya Forester's case is worth a read too.

I did hope these landmarks and the government putting an end to the use of resources from the likes of Mermaids in school would wake up schools but maybe it takes time.

If it’s about wanting to be cool, then a kid who came to my class asking to be referred to as T-Bone would be told to sit down, Tim.

Can't see Bob going non-binary

@TheHoneyBadger

I know the comparison with anorexia is unpopular but it too is body dysmorphia and we take it seriously and challenge it to try to help people accept the body they are in and explore and unpick the processes that make them believe that they are eg. fat when they're actually underweight and we wouldn't dream of keeping it secret from parents because their 'identity' and how they feel about their body is sacred.

A child having sex dysphoria is an issue that needs addressing psychologically just like any other mental issue. Whatever outcome comes from that down the line AFTER that psychological support and exploration has been given is another matter (and none of our business as schools) but safeguarding and ensuring children with mental disorders (and keep in mind the fact that the vast majority of children who go through sex dysphoria don't grow up to be trans) are taken care of by informing parents and where necessary other agencies IS our business. It's the core of our business and if we don't do it why on earth should parents trust us?

Right sorry - too much posting but I feel really strongly about this and was hoping that things like the Keira Bell case would open people's eyes to the fact that we are failing kids by just auto going along with things rather than exploring with them and helping them understand themselves and unpick the issues at play before they make any decisions.

The NHS have stated that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness. It's also important to recognise that not all people experimenting with gender identify have gender dysphoria

I want to be clear. I'm not talking in support of TRAs trying to erase what it means to be a women nor in support of referring these children to places like Mermaids (they absolutely shouldn't be and those organisations are dangerous).

However, it isn't true to say that many with gender dysphoria desist. Those who desist before medical intervention are often those not recognised as having gender dysphoria in the first place (and so would have no need to transition). There is a small number who desist after medical intervention and that's absolutely why children should never be referred to those organisations that encourage that.

However, we can't pretend that we know how parents would react to the news that their child wishes to use a different pronoun or name. Some would react terribly, even violently, especially in certain communities. For goodness sake, conversion therapy is still legal in this country. I could not live with the knowledge that my actions had led to a child to be sent to conversion therapy or "honour killed". Or even taking their own life as a result of parental rejection.

Well the same might happen if you told a family their child had been sending naked photos of themselves yet we do it because we have a safeguarding issue. If we think a child is in a family where there is violence that's a safeguarding issue in itself.

Why is this issue sacred?

We'll have to agree to disagree on desistance rates and it's worth noting trans rates are very high in some massively homophobic countries if you want to talk about conversion therapy and lesbians in this country are undergoing mass conversion therapy when pressured into thinking they should have to accept lady dick or they're a bigot.

It's clearly a very contentious issue with very different views which is why schools shouldn't take an unquestioning stance based on politics and pressure and should probably stay out of it other than supporting families in this situation.

Probably we should drop talking about it here too.

I am concerned about the links between autism and identifying as a different gender (in girls), all the girls I have known to do this, and it's an increasing number, are also listed as being on the autistic spectrum.

I also wish it would stop bloody raining as I am on holiday and I didn't sign up for rain.

I'm rushing, but I though about the Keira Bell judgement too.

If you have 17 minutes, Michele Moore's WPUK talk on this topic is well worth a watch.