The Sixty-Second Republic - Pop da pop pop, the beat don't stop until the break of term

[StaffRepFeistyClub]

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One of the issues my adult learners raised time and time again was having been taught too much too quickly at school so they didn’t grasp the basics properly - they often described these as being “crowded out”. These were bright and capable people who for a variety of reasons found Maths more of a challenge than other subjects.

Nurture groups in primary is something totally different. In our case they generally involved children known to children’s services.

We have some sort of SEN nurture group but not sure what they do. It's definitely discrete from school sets though.

@RafaIsTheKingOfClay

Nurture groups in primary is something totally different. In our case they generally involved children known to children’s services.

I suppose the thing I am struggling with is why a 'bottom Maths set in secondary' NEEDS to be known as a 'nurture group'? In primary, the name describes who the group is for and what they do. Not so much in Maths in secondary.

Nurture groups should be different from bottom sets.
In my experience they're either part of Enhanced Mainstream Provision, are a specific initiative linked with the SEN department, be a class who has a different curriculum offer because of SMH needs, or are a parallel class based on students needing additional support in different ways.

I agree with you about twee euphemisms for bottom sets piggy.

I voted on the just maths poll. We wouldn't do a full paper until year 11 mocks. And by the time they're doing their mocks there's only a few actual topics they haven't met yet. There would definitely be questions on the topics they've met, that they wouldn't be able to do because we haven't gone that deep in that topic. But if we haven't got as far in the sow as "non linear graphs" there wouldn't be any questions about that on a paper before December in year 11. We do cover each "topic" in the GCSE, it's the depth that changes based on how much the class has understood. Even then, we only give them a full paper at that point because we need to get them used to what the papers look and feel like. All subjects give full papers in the mocks at our school, and none of us have finished the entire content.

A bottom set is not a nurture group. My HOD keeps trying to use it and I remind them that they aren't being nurtured, they're just being taught slightly easier maths and probably will get to do entry level. Nothing nurturing there!

We had a pilot of Y7 nurture groups where they were taught like primary, in the same room all day etc. Not sure it was brilliantly successful and it did cause some resentment as they got pizza delivered every half term!

Scientists is it a bit like how you'd teach say electricity to all students, but only the really hard bits to the kids who would actually understand it? Surely no science dept teaches kids aiming for g1-2 the same content as 4+ kids? Or am I clueless!

Slightly off topic, born do you find fractions/ratio/percentages are an issue with your adult learners?

They seem to be a complete mystery here.

My bottom set are sometimes known as a nurture group, because they are all part of the learning support department's intervention group focusing on developing their social skills and life skills. They are in a much smaller class with a teaching assistant as well as a teacher. What happens in my classroom isn't often the nurture part, but sometimes it is. Sometimes we abandon their official maths and learn a life skill (often a mathematical life skill, but it's not on our scheme of work). I don't like the term in general though, so mostly call them "set 5".

@RafaIsTheKingOfClay

Slightly off topic, born do you find fractions/ratio/percentages are an issue with your adult learners?

They seem to be a complete mystery here.

I'm sure it's because we go too fast with some children in Primary school.

Too fast, too early for some children - and then they miss the basics and it's just confusion building on confusion.

We were told on my PGCE that the whole thing about Singapore maths is that it consists of tiny steps, delivered by maths specialists.

Work is assessed immediately and any child who hasn't grasped the step then goes over it in small groups in the afternoon.

And then work goes home that night and parents ensure it's grasped.

Massive difference culturally. Far more like Phonics.

The tutoring I did recently really brought hone to me how important those early building blocks are: place value for example.

I know we're all supposed to love mixed ability teaching if we're progressive but I really think the pace in U.K. schools is punishingly fast for some children.

@MsAwesomeDragon

My bottom set are sometimes known as a nurture group, because they are all part of the learning support department's intervention group focusing on developing their social skills and life skills. They are in a much smaller class with a teaching assistant as well as a teacher. What happens in my classroom isn't often the nurture part, but sometimes it is. Sometimes we abandon their official maths and learn a life skill (often a mathematical life skill, but it's not on our scheme of work). I don't like the term in general though, so mostly call them "set 5".

Yes. I think this is the case in my daughter's school.

I really think the pace in U.K. schools is punishingly fast for some children.

Then by the time they are in Y7, they've missed so many building blocks, we never go far enough back to infill and support them properly. It's heartbreaking really.

Rafa all the time. It’s pretty much a given. It was also very clearly flagged up on the diagnostic assessments all learners do online, which in its latest incarnation gave levels on different areas. Quite often learners would be Level 2 on whole numbers (including negative numbers) but only Entry 3 on fractions/ratio/percentages. Measurement and particularly area is also a big issue. I genuinely think they don’t “see” it (I’ve talked about it on here before I think).

😁

I'm finding it amazing that the secondary teachers on here are saying, 'I'm not sure what they do ...'
It's such a different world in Primary. I think I'm beginning to envy the spaciousness of Secondary. Primaries are often very close little worlds.

My favourite Primary had nurture groups for any child that needed a bit of support or social skills work. It had an outstanding rating for its SEND provision, and a SENCO who was only employed as a SENCO and she had an Assistant. In a one-form entry school. Goodness knows how they could afford it.

Query for my secondary colleagues - while some of the children I teach in upper KS2 really struggle in every subject and so would end up in lower sets for all subjects in secondary, I have had a few year find Maths a very particular difficulty, while being pretty decent in English and other subjects.

I have always imagined that in the ability-grouped secondary environment, they would be e.g. set 5 Maths and set 2 English. However, the fact that lowest Maths set becomes synonymous with 'nurture group' or focuses on 'life skills and social skills' implies that the setting really doesn't work that flexibly?

(I have no idea how 'year' appeared as a substitute for 'who' in my post!)

Hercisback 'Then by the time they are in Y7, they've missed so many building blocks, we never go far enough back to infill and support them properly. It's heartbreaking really.'

Yes. Exactly this.
I often wonder about what Secondary teachers make of it/do.

I suspect they curse Primary school teachers that have let it happen.

But, honestly, we try. The pace is just too fast for some of the children, though. And there just isn't any way to 'make' the extra time and teaching they need.

Secondaries do setting and streaming differently. We do sets for English, Maths and Science and they're all independent. You could be in set 1 maths, 4 English and 2 science. We don't have a nurture group. Support like that would be done in small group intervention with an LSA.

All other subjects are done in form groups until y9 when there is some streaming of PE and MFL.

Oops confusion of tenses there, reason being I resigned but keep forgetting that I did.
(I gave up my job for a number of reasons but one was the wilful refusal of management to understand that you have to do a A LOT of work - and provide A LOT of support to people who have spent most of their lives not succeeding in Maths, that learning doesn’t happen by magic if they are put in a classroom for four days with others in the same situation. Unfortunately I was a victim of my own success with the 50% of learners it did work for…)

I often wonder about what Secondary teachers make of it/do.

The very weakest, we do the same as you. Try what we can but accept there is not enough time/capacity etc to truly support them. Sadly I bottom set is too fast for some. We also don't have the expertise to go 'back' far enough to fill the gaps. I think all secondary schools should have a primary maths specialist in them to re teach the weakest from scratch.

I suspect fractions/percentages/ratio is where the chickens of poorly-grasped basics come home to roost.

In my dreams, I'd have children approaching fractions as a topic over several weeks, looking at all the different ways you can think about fractions and how they relate to other maths topics.

I think it just blows the minds of children who aren't completely secure.

I suspect fractions/percentages/ratio is where the chickens of poorly-grasped basics come home to roost.

That’s a Larsen cartoon I’d like to see…

@cantkeepawayforever

Query for my secondary colleagues - while some of the children I teach in upper KS2 really struggle in every subject and so would end up in lower sets for all subjects in secondary, I have had a few year find Maths a very particular difficulty, while being pretty decent in English and other subjects.

I have always imagined that in the ability-grouped secondary environment, they would be e.g. set 5 Maths and set 2 English. However, the fact that lowest Maths set becomes synonymous with 'nurture group' or focuses on 'life skills and social skills' implies that the setting really doesn't work that flexibly?

I think a couple of my bottom set year 10 are in much higher English sets. They aren't all in the same class for every subject. The "nurture group" in our school actually has all of the bottom set maths class and all of the bottom set English class but while there is some overlap they aren't all the same children. There are a few kids from higher sets in the nurture group too, if they need the extra help with their social/life skills. I don't think it's necessarily that the bottom set maths class are targeted for extra focus on social/life skills, more that kids who need help with social/life skills struggle with academic learning as well.

Herc Do you know, that's even true in primary.

I'm not an EYFS specialist and i don't feel I have enough expertise to go back far enough.

I was taught explicitly on my PGCE, by my Maths Specialism tutor, that issues can nearly always be traced right back to those early foundations. And if you really, really want to sort things, back you must go.

But I have never, ever felt brave enough to do that. Other than when tutoring privately.

In a school, I feel I'd get hammered by SLT and I don't, personally, feel secure enough about my own expertise.