Why are primary and secondary school teachers paid the same if secondary school teachers have a degree and then do a PGCE?

[worried63xx]

Just a genuine question really, not meant to antagonise.
Don't secondary school teachers have to have better qualifications to get into teaching?

[worried63xx]

@mrsJ28903 Erm because I want to teach, because I want to make a difference, I like my subject and love interacting with the students so I will accept the low pay because it's the career I want to do. What an odd statement to make. That doesn't mean I don't wonder why it's so low as many actual teachers probably do aswell? No I'm not on a lot of money for my PGCE, not that it's relevant.

[fedup21]

But I no know that primary do PGCE aswell as from the people I know training from primary

Are these people on your course?

[worried63xx]

@fedup21 No obviously not because I would then know that primary can do a PGCE....
I have friends and family members doing primary training/are qualified.

[Piggywaspushed]

So, if you are motivated by moving up and wanting to improve your pay and find fulfilment form promotion start getting involved with stuff, join working parties, follow people on Twitter, read about education and just get yourself involved and informed.

A few years in something like a middle leadership qualification could help or enhance your skillset.

[fedup21]

But I no know that primary do PGCE aswell as from the people I know training from primary

Sorry, you’ve lost me. If you know that primary people do a PGCE from the people you know training, why did it come as a surprise?

[worried63xx]

@fedup21

"But I no (w) know that primary do PGCE aswell.

As from the people I know training from primary and those qualified they did that BA hons"

They were meant to be separate. The people I know training or qualified did the BA hons for 3 years. From this forum I have learnt that primary can do PGCE as well.

[schoolcats]

follow people on Twitter,

Have a look on Twitter tomorrow for #ffbwednesday and you'll find a lot of decent teachers. Post on there and follow anybody who follows you who has a profile saying they are a teacher and it'll pay dividends.

[worried63xx]

@schoolcats Thankyou I will have a look :)

[schoolcats]

twitter.com/search?q=%23ffbwednesday&src=typed_query

link for #ffbwednesday on twitter in case you (or anybody else) isn't familiar with Twitter.

[schoolcats]

#edutwitter is another good one

twitter.com/search?q=%23edutwitter&src=typed_query

[cantkeepawayforever]

Possibly a useful parallel is to think of the PGCE as like the Law Conversion Course - it converts a graduate who has not studied education into someone who is trained to be a teacher, just like the Law Conversion course coverts a graduate who has not studied law into someone who is trained to beging to work as a lawyer.

The Law degree and the law conversion course are equal - they both allow the holder to take the next step into that profession. Someone who has another degree + law conversion is not a 'better lawyer' or 'better qualified' than someone who studied law.

Similarly, the BEd and the PGCE - education conversion course, if you like - are equal. they both allow the holder to obtain QTS. It is simply more efficient to allow Physics, History, English etc departments to do the 'subject teaching' for those who will teach secondary, before the Education departments add on the teaching bit. For primary, the subject is less relevant so the two routes exist side by side, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.

[worried63xx]

@cantkeepawayforever Yeah that is a great example actually. That makes sense, thankyou.

[northernknickers]

I did a 4 year (full time) Primary BEd.

You seem to have very little knowledge about routes into teaching OP...and despite your 'insistence' that you're not trying to be antagonistic, actually, you are being...and quite ignorant too! I mean, it would have taken less than 5 minutes to google 'routes into teaching' to discover the very many pathways.

[Mammyloveswine]

My degree is in early primary education and during that degree I did 3 years of classroom practice gaining QTS... I'd say I was more qualified than someone with a philosophy dredger and then a whistle stop PGCE!

How rude to imply that I am lesser a teacher when my actual degree is in teaching!!

[StillRowing]

I did a 3 year BEd degree with QTS. I’ve spent 7 years teaching KS2 mainly years 3 and 5 and have just switched to teaching Year 9 in a special school no additional qualifications needed.

[fedup21]

I'd say I was more qualified than someone with a philosophy dredger and then a whistle stop PGCE!

I don’t think the government have yet stopped so low as to allow people with dredgers instead of degrees become teachers.

[PurpleDaisies]

I’m not aware of any evidence that primary teachers who have done a one year PGCE are worse than those who trained on the three year dredgers. Many bring significant relevant experience to the profession.

[worried63xx]

@Mammyloveswine I never once said you were a lesser teacher.

[worried63xx]

@northernknickers It was just a random thought I had and I've admitted my ignorance several times in the thread so there's no need to say that. Evidently due to my route into teaching I have failed to consider other routes apart from the two that I knew of and I've admitted that. And actually the result of the thread is that people have been discussing career progression, pros and cons of the PGCE, primary vs secondary teaching and routes into teaching so actually its inadvertently sparked a good debate and topic that you've engaged in.

[Letseatgrandma]

I never once said you were a lesser teacher.

No, though you were surprised that teachers without a PGCE earnt the same as those with, which could be perceived as being quite rude to those without one.

[Mammyloveswine]

@fedup21 terrible typo on my part!

Quick break from typing up observations in learning journals and writing up speech and language referrals...

As well as being an early years phase leader I am speech and language lead in my school.

But I must remember I do not deserve to earn my UPS salary.. especially as I only teach early years. Nothing like "playing all day".

[worried63xx]

@letseatgrandma I wasn't surprised. I was enquiring and curious and interested in the debate that if you have a 3 year subject degree could that lead to a higher pay scale. People have then veered off and accused me of calling primary school teachers lesser and that they 'play' all the time and I didn't even hint towards that. I have massive respect for all teachers and know a fair amount of primary school teachers and recognise that they work just as hard. I wasn't making it about work ethic or intelligence or anything like that. If people feel offended and want to interpret it in that way they are more than welcome but that was not my intent.

[Mammyloveswine]

@PurpleDaisies I was trying to turn the OPs argument around.. I really don't think it matters what route someone has taken into teaching, I think the ops post was ridiculous but also highly insulting!

And if it were the case then those of us with education degrees would be paid more but of course that's not the case, nor should it be!

Although any dredgers should not earn the same

[worried63xx]

The fact you find it insulting is baffling @Mammyloveswine I didn't start my post with 'primary school teachers do nothing and play all day. secondary teachers are way smarter and should be paid more'. I was asking a question to understand the pros and cons of the PGCE, amount of qualifications etc. There is a difference.

[fedup21]

terrible typo on my part!

You never know, dredging might be the basis of the next recruitment campaign from ‘Get into teaching’! Everything else has failed!