Why are primary and secondary school teachers paid the same if secondary school teachers have a degree and then do a PGCE?

[worried63xx]

Just a genuine question really, not meant to antagonise.
Don't secondary school teachers have to have better qualifications to get into teaching?

[Medea11]

There are undergraduate courses for secondary too. They are not as common these days though. I’m told they can’t get the numbers because students would rather keep their options open and have the huge bursaries offered post grad.

I teach a secondary core subject and did a undergraduate training programme.We did extra modules in years one and two, then we did the same masters-level content and assignments as the PGCE students in year three to top up the credits.

It’s really intense actually and shouldn’t be seen as lesser in my opinion - all teachers are assessed against the same standards, no matter what route they take.

[worried63xx]

@Aragog So is the aim of a masters to increase your chance of getting a higher position in the school and then more wages?
And, if teachers are so qualified then why is pay so poor? Surely its not right that if someone gets a law degree they get paid way more and someone gets law degree and teaching status and teaches law at A level its way less. Especially when teachers work very hard?

[csmw]

My sister is a primary teacher, after having been at secondary. She has a degree in science and a PGCR that allows her to teach later primary and early secondary I think.

[Corneliawildthing]

I'm a primary teacher in Scotland. Most of our NQTs have done a B Ed degree over 4 years. It used to be thought better for primary if somebody has spent 4 years on training for primary, rather than doing a degree in anything then trying to cram everything you need to teach primary into one year of a PGDE.

[ballsdeep]

It's exactly the same. I did a degree and then a pgce.

[Aragog]

YourOpinionIsNoted Tue 07-Jan-20 19:44:57
BEd is four years, not three.

There are very few BEd degrees about now. Most are a BA, these appear more so for Primary Education.

Most of the Primary Education degrees, which include QTS, are 3 years.

My BEd with QTS was in secondary, but was a shortened 2 year course. You had to have done a higher level qualification, above A level, to access it - I did it after transferring mid degree in another subject.

[Smurf123]

B.Ed for primary is a 4 year honours degree here and there is a B.Ed for secondary which is also 4 years honours degree.
The other way to teach primary or secondary is to do a degree then a pgce - both primary and secondary options.

[Aragog]

@Aragog So is the aim of a masters to increase your chance of getting a higher position in the school and then more wages?

Sometimes, though this isn't always possible. I guess it can make you stand out above the crowd a bit. However the two staff at my school with them did them purely for their own interest and benefit. They have not changed their roles since getting them.

And, if teachers are so qualified then why is pay so poor?

Most public sector pay is below that which you would get in the private sector, especially once you are a few years after qualification. You don't really go into teaching for the pay. To be fair, the pay is all well published and you can see it so it should come as a shock to potential recruits.

Especially when teachers work very hard?

Unfortunately in many jobs how much you get paid isn't necessarily related to how much work you put in.

[SansaSnark]

There are BEd degrees for secondary as well in some subjects such as PE. There are also secondary teachers who do a QTS only route to qualify and so don't have a PGCE.

[Nonnymum]

Primary teachers have the same qualifications as primary. They both have to have QTS to get that you need a degree and then a PGCE then a year teaching to get QTS or you do something like a teach First, Teach Direct. The other route is a 4 year BEd either for primary or secondary. There is no difference in the level if the qualification

[VenusTiger]

You could say that about any person in a job OP - if you're suggesting you should get paid more because you have more (or spent longer at uni) qualifications then you are sadly mistaken.

[worried63xx]

@VenusTiger Yeah that's true actually!

[worried63xx]

Is the aim for most teachers to work their way up to SLT or heads of department to get higher wages or are their some that are just content in a normal teaching position and is there always pressure from above for you to have career progression and take on additional roles?

[Letseatgrandma]

Sounds like the people who ask whether reception teachers are going to get a pay rise when they go ‘up’ to teaching year 1 or assume they’ve got a promotion when they move from Y5 to Y6!

[Piggywaspushed]

What job do you do OP??

[Letseatgrandma]

Is the aim for most teachers to work their way up to SLT or heads of department to get higher wages or are their some that are just content in a normal teaching position and is there always pressure from above for you to have career progression and take on additional roles?

Do you understand that there are many many more ‘ordinary’ teaching roles than there are leadership roles? Even if most teachers wanted to work their way up, they simply couldn’t.

[worried63xx]

@letseatgrandma Yes that's why I said 'is the aim' as in intentions. Do most teachers want that career progression eventually after many years teaching?

[Aragog]

Many are content remaining as classroom teachers, though most will take on some additional responsibilities even if the don't get paid for it.

Most teachers I know have never had any pressure placed on them to move up to management. The ones who have moved their way up have done so because they wanted to.

It's a good not everyone wants to anyway - there is a need for far more classroom teachers than there is for management positions.

For example in my infant school (270 children, 3 year groups, 3 form intake) we have 4 management roles - Headteacher, Deputy Head (who is also SENCO), Reception Leader and Key Stage 1 Leader (who also do the equivalent of 4 days a week teaching their classes.) Most classroom teachers at my school are also subject leads but this is not a paid responsibility.

[worried63xx]

Thankyou for the info @aragog.

[Piggywaspushed]

Are you after a career in teaching, just wondering, researching??

[WarmthAndDepth]

Worried , your example of the law graduates holds no water as practising Law is a different field to teaching (as in teaching Law at A-level), hence different remuneration.
And yes, plenty of teachers entered teaching as a vocation, for the love of working with children and young people, making a real, tangible difference in their lives, and have no hankering for an SLT role irrespective of higher pay or TLRs. Middle leadership if a subject leader perhaps, but wouldn't be dragged out of the classroom for all the tea in China.

[fedup21]

Do most teachers want that career progression eventually after many years teaching?

No, I would say that most teachers do not.

[worried63xx]

@Piggywaspushed Interested in career teaching.

[Piggywaspushed]

OK, I see. Just found you on another thread and I see you are currently doing a PGCE.

[Sewingbea]

So is the aim of a masters to increase your chance of getting a higher position in the school and then more wages?
I have a first class honours degree from a Russell group university. I also have a master's degree and I teach in a special school as a class teacher having worked part time until my oldest was fifteen. The part time work has pretty much nixed career progression for me but I didn't feel that I could manage the ridiculous hours of full time teaching and spend as much time with my daughters as I wanted to. I completely my masters because I was interested in education and because I felt it would improve my classroom practice. I don't get paid any extra for it, but I do think it has helped me to get interviews.
And, if teachers are so qualified then why is pay so poor? Hollow laughs here. If you read the Daily Mail then you'd think it was because we're all so shocking at our jobs. It's not the pay that bothers most teachers though, it's the miserable way they are treated by senior leaders. The executive head of my last school would announce in MAT meetings to "her" assembled minions "If you don't like it here go and work in Lidl." The government has a huge retention crisis in education, they're spending millions trying to recruit but doing nothing about why teachers are leaving in their droves.