Why are primary and secondary school teachers paid the same if secondary school teachers have a degree and then do a PGCE?

[worried63xx]

Just a genuine question really, not meant to antagonise.
Don't secondary school teachers have to have better qualifications to get into teaching?

[worried63xx]

@piggywaspushed the actual teaching side of things I have massively focused on and I am progressing well. In terms of current educational issues and knowledge of the career I am unsupported hence my questioning. And I know that's okay!

[noblegiraffe]

why the wages are so low,

9 years of austerity Tory government meaning years of pay freezes and then below-inflation pay rises.

[schoolcats]

@Piggywaspushed than you primary teachers who are just kind and hug a bit.

Of course that's all the primary school teachers do all day, just like secondary school teachers are all 'one trick ponies' who are only capable of teaching one subject

Does anybody else think that the PGCE needs an over haul? It doesn't teach you to teach, instead it just chucks you in the classroom, tells you where you are going wrong at an infrequent observation and expects you to fix it yourself without any guidance? That's my observation from having spoken to PGCE students/been in classes where they are on placement.

[fedup21]

MyNameIsJane I have applied for a schools based PGCE and the course requires you to have a GCSE in Maths, English and Science

Is that primary or secondary?

[ClappyFlappy]

I really don’t see how secondary teachers have an “extra qualification”. A primary teacher needs either a degree in education or another degree and a PG in teaching. A secondary teacher needs a degree in their substantive subject that they’re going to teach and a PG in teaching. What “extra qualification” are you on about?

[fedup21]

Does anybody else think that the PGCE needs an over haul?

Yes.

Sadly the only overhaul I can see a Tory government giving the PGCE is to remove the need for teachers to have one at all.

[Piggywaspushed]

Yes, I do cats, definitely.

[namechangedyetagain]

@fedup21 that is for primary.

[worried63xx]

@ClappyFlappy In terms of the 3 year BA hons primary teaching- that is one degree where you get QTS. Then secondary (or primary as I now know) you do 3 year degree in chosen subject then (extra, I guess) PGCE qualification. So you have that 3 years of subject knowledge in initial degree. But I no know that primary do PGCE aswell as from the people I know training from primary and those qualified they did that BA hons.

[cantkeepawayforever]

I think the primary PGCE is still useful, tbh - and having been the class teacher for students, having to give EXTREMELY detailed feedback almost on a lesson by lesson basis, I think they generally get pretty good guidance IF they have a decent class teacher / school mentor..

[schoolcats]

I don't think it's fit for purpose and it's not fair on the schools, the student or the children. I've seen PGCE students in tears having been expected to cover a class in their first week of their first placement when the teacher is off sick and any number of things. I am so thankful I'm not a teacher/student teacher.

[PurpleDaisies]

You are doing a pgce but you had no idea that primary teachers are generally just as qualified as secondary teachers?

Ok.

[worried63xx]

I know that they are qualified as teachers.... as I've said I thought commonly secondary did PGCE and primary (from the experiences I've seen) do the 3 year BA hons with QTS.

[noblegiraffe]

doesn't teach you to teach

What on earth are they doing in the weeks at uni before they start their placement then?

I have memories of Vygotsky and Piaget from mine (although I’ll be honest, I can’t remember what they say).

PGCE students on placement at my school certainly get feedback after every lesson and more guidance than you suggest.

Maybe it’s shit PGCEs that need an overhaul? I wonder if part of the problem is the whole Masters credit thing now where you learn a bunch of theoretical stuff instead of classroom craft.

[cantkeepawayforever]

OP, I suppose it depends whether you think that a single year of teacher training - ie a PGCE - is a 'better' qualification for being a great teacher that a 3 or 4 year specialised education degree, a BEd.

I think you are being misled by that 'postgraduate' bit - yes, it is a qualification 'taken after a degree', but it simply confers QTS, like a BEd does, so from that point of view they are seen as exactly equivalent AS TEACHING QUALIFICATIONS.

[schoolcats]

What on earth are they doing in the weeks at uni before they start their placement then?

I'm told they are learning subject knowledge but I've never been and seen what they do so I could be wrong.

The ones I have spoken to say they only get feedback when it's an observation which is usually once a fortnight from the class teacher and then two from their university mentor.

I wonder if part of the problem is the whole Masters credit thing now where you learn a bunch of theoretical stuff instead of classroom craft.

I think you are probably right.

[worried63xx]

@cantkeepawayforever Yes I have called it a qualification.

[Piggywaspushed]

I think there is a place for the theory of learning etc though and in many schools teachers' knowledge is old hat, outdated etc,. ur PGCE model is very very wanting in my area. To be fair the university is very third rate. I am no academic snob but it really is...

[daisypond]

Qualifications have little bearing on how far you go in a job in any field of work, as long as you have the minimum. In fact, it’s often the case that the most qualified earn the least- purely because, for example, they like academic learning and that’s not what many job skills are based on. I know several primary teachers. One has a degree in history from Cambridge before doing a PGCE. Another has a PhD. They are classroom teachers.

[clareykb]

I did the 3yr BA Ed 15 years ago and it was phasesld out at my uni to a 4 year the year after me. My 3 year had longer term time than other students for QTS so we had school hols rather than uni ones. I would also say that most of my colleagues, especially those under 30 have a degree + a post grad and I'm primary.

[PurpleDaisies]

I wonder if part of the problem is the whole Masters credit thing now where you learn a bunch of theoretical stuff instead of classroom craft.

You couldn’t pass without meeting the standards, even if your masters work was top notch. We had naff all support with the university essays when I trained on a Scitt. They were basically done in the holidays.

[cantkeepawayforever]

I think it is more helpful to see them as exactly equivalent, but different, teaching qualifications - those who get a different degree need a 'condensed' version of the BEd to bring them up to educational speed.

From a secondary perspective, I can understand why the BEd has been replaced by a subject degree, because of the need for subject-specific content. It makes more sense for that to be delivered alongside non- future teachers in a stand-alone 'Physics' degree, for example. the PGCE then delivers the BEd's 'critical bits of the teaching content' plus in school experience.

From a primary perspective, the breadth of subjects to be taught neutralises the advantage of a subject specific degree, so in some ways the BEd is a 'better teaching qualification' because it isn't condensed. that said, having the two different routes open means that primary staffrooms contain a huge range of different subject skills and knowledge, which is an advantage to us all as we plan the curriculum for our classes.

[MrsJ28903]

I find it very bizarre that you’ve decided to do a PGCE to train to be a teacher when you think/know that the pay is low. Are you on one of those £26k training places?!

[MrsJ28903]

And I am primary SLT. I have a degree in another subject, primary PGCE and an MA in my subject. Could have taught secondary but chose primary. All of the teachers at my school have a PGCE (and more besides).

[cantkeepawayforever]

(The two routes also mean that e.g. those of us coming to teaching as a second career only have a year of training - so the PGCE is a useful '1 year conversion course')