Why are primary and secondary school teachers paid the same if secondary school teachers have a degree and then do a PGCE?

[worried63xx]

Just a genuine question really, not meant to antagonise.
Don't secondary school teachers have to have better qualifications to get into teaching?

[DrMadelineMaxwell]

I'm primary. I was made head of key stage this year and another random lead title, then had to put my foot down to get the same tlr that another member of staff had while I languished on a tlr3. I won.
The only way for me to move now is dept and that would mean leaving a fab school with a short commute, a mostly nice catchment area and brilliant colleagues. I'm lucky that the SLT structure in primaries has tlr opportunities otherwise I'd just be stuck on ups3.

[Piggywaspushed]

Solidarity sister!

[Cat0115]

Piggywaspushed I too have my face squashed on the glass ceiling. SLT all 30somethings now. I'm eyeballing 50. HoD but no further must be on a post it note on my back!

[Aragog]

QTS is not normally treated as a separate element for any of the routes into teaching. It's normally taught within the normal course curriculum and via the various work placements.

It is, however, a separate award which is normally incorporated into the studies. It is not awarded by the university or college.

On completion of the course you take, you are put forward to the Government body as recommended to be awarded QTS. The Teaching Regulation Agency (TRA) then decide whether to award or not. This is based on their knowledge of the course - it would be very unlikely that this was refused once the college or university has sent your details for recommendation.

[DrMadelineMaxwell]

My primary education degree didn't have the qts separately.

[Poltergeister]

Primary education degrees have the qts as a separate component. Assessed and delivered separately to the degree modules. It makes each term/year longer than standard undergrad. Also involves more contact hours.
I did 28 weeks full time teaching practice if I remember correctly, along with one day a week, placement folders with practice related evidence and assignments. In addition to the standard 6 modules a year for the undergrad.
I was lead to believe it's a similar workload to a pgce and undergrad just condensed into 3 years.

[YourOpinionIsNoted]

Hah loving your totally unbiased opinion there, noble!

[noblegiraffe]

And why English teachers don’t get paid more for the marking or PE teachers for the weekend fixtures or drama and music teachers for the productions or maths teachers for just generally being amazing.

All teaching roles have their different burdens.

[DrMadelineMaxwell]

My 4 year BEd(hons) degree, specialising in 2 subjects and spreading teaching pracs across 2 Key stages qualifies me to teach age 3-16. The lack of degree in my subject does stop me teaching it at A level.

I'm on the SLT as our school has a a broad structure. I'm not dept, but have a TLR. None of our depts or TLR positions (2 in school) have additional non contact time apart from on an ad hoc basis when it is required for specific jobs as there's not the budget for it. So it's definitely true that it adds to workload without removing the full time teaching component. I got it by dint of my experience and my willingness to do other jobs and my lack of ability to keep my mouth shut and not speak up in meetings etc .

A different question could be is to ask why all teachers are paid the same when KS2 work a longer day than Foundation phase/stage and KS1 and when secondary work a longer day than primary in many cases. And why there is no recognition for the after school clubs that most KS2 teachers but only a few secondary and only a very few KS1 teachers (in my experience) do. They aren't compulsory or directable, BUT there's always the pressure to do them.

[zulqyfal123]

Hi,
I am an educational professional.

Yes, your right to a certain extent but theres more Behaviour Management training needed for secondary school teachers. At the moment the focus is on Primary Schools which is good but secondary sector being neglected.

[sashh]

schoolcats

IMHO it does yes. I did DTLLS and then found myself doing supply n schools so went to do a PGCE. The academic side of it was, to me, easier than the DTLLS and there was very little on theories and things like learning styles (I know they are out of favour at the moment but it's worth knowing theories and how they come about). The PGCE also didn't have anything about SEN teaching. Considering most SEN pupils are in mainstream and specialist support is as rare as hen's teeth it's something I believe should be taught, I know you can't teach about every SEN but you could look at the most common.

[SallyLovesCheese]

I have a BA degree, a PGCE and an MA. I teach primary. I have previously been middle leadership but did not enjoy all the extra pressure put on me, on top of my normal teaching load. Yes, I got TLR for having more responsibility but all the money in the world is not going to make me able to fit everything I have to do into the time I have left and still enjoy a life outside of work. I'm much happier being a "normal" teacher.

Interestingly, two members of SLT at my previous school held no more qualifications that a BA for one and a PGCE for the other. Promotion in school is not dependent on qualifications, it's dependent on you wanting to be SLT or not.

And the pay is what it is. Some people can negotiate better pay, I'm sure, but most schools these days aren't really looking to pay loads to "over-qualified" teachers when they can have less experienced teachers just out of training who'll do the same job for much less. When I left my leadership role (on UPS3), my position was given to someone just two years out of their SCITT. It's just the way schools are now.

[Stabilos]

I know that lawyers earn more but if you have the same educational background and both work as hard then certain careers shouldn't earn loads more than others

Lawyers are bringing in £££ of revenue for their practices, the money is there to remunerate them well. Yes teachers deserve to earn more but that's the difference between private and public sector. If you want big money, become a lawyer. Is teaching a vocation for you?

I know of a former CEO of a law firm who didn't have a qualification to his name, just one year p/t at a business school. Entrepreneurial ability is innate, not generally educated in.

[ClappyFlappy]

Surely its not right that if someone gets a law degree they get paid way more and someone gets law degree and teaching status and teaches law at A level its way less. Especially when teachers work very hard?

A. Not all lawyers get paid more than teachers.
B. Lawyers may work very hard too. “Hard work” is not the sole domain of teachers.
C. There is no correlation between how hard someone works and how much they’re paid.

[Stabilos]

Surely its not right that if someone gets a law degree they get paid way more and someone gets law degree and teaching status and teaches law at A level its way less. Especially when teachers work very hard?

You're very naive as to the world of commerce works

[user1483387154]

primary school teacher with a BA hons and qualified teacher status ( teaching qualification) 4 years at uni doing both side by side.

[Piggywaspushed]

I think there are some jobs where gaining qualifications does get you promoted. However, you have to be accepted or put forward for those exams , if my family experience of police and civil service is anything to go on.

[damnthatanxiety]

OP, your error is in assuming that more qualifications means you go further. Most people in top positions have one bachelor degree at the most. Some have none. Academic qualifications are a single type of qualification. Experience is another type of qualification. Qualification means that a person is 'qualified' to do a role. In all honesty, having a masters degree in medieval literature and a PGCE does not qualify you to be a teacher any more than someone with a single degree in education. I would argue that someone with 3 years studying education would be MORE qualified to teach than someone with a single year of a teaching qualification tacked on to the end of any old degree. Particularly at primary level where a thorough understanding of education/learning/learning difficulties etc is more important than expertise in molecular physics. I do agree with you that it is a sad thing though that professions like teaching and nursing are not better paid.

[Aragog]

In terms of the 3 year BA hons primary teaching- that is one degree where you get QTS. Then secondary (or primary as I now know) you do 3 year degree in chosen subject then (extra, I guess) PGCE qualification.

Maybe try to look at the PGCE as a conversion course, like the law course qualification to use your earlier analogy. So it's what converts your subject degree into an education one.

[Piggywaspushed]

I must say I need to come back to the claim that you wanted to understand the different qualifications and their pros and cons. It's odd that you asked this when already embarked on a secondary PGCE. It really is. I would understand if someone looking at going into teaching asked it!

Did you start your PGCE in secondary thinking you would be paid more as a secondary teacher ? That's the only logic I can apply to your initial question, really. And that you are now a touch put out to discover that this is not the case.

On the plus side for you, secondary teachers are on average paid more as the schools are larger and there are more opportunities for promotion. SLT roles are often highly paid in large secondary schools. I do know someone whose sole aim was to become a head of a very large secondary so he could earn as much as a teacher possibly could. He now earns 90k+ so he succeeded.

[cantkeepawayforever]

Sewingbea - no...but if I sound like someone called Hazel, then it's great to know that there are several of us out there!

[Sewingbea]

@cantkeepawayforever Hazel? Is that you?

[Mammyloveswine]

@Dancingontheedge sums it up perfectly!

Good luck with your studies OP.

Are you secondary or primary out of interest? You may have said already but just wondering.

[Dancingontheedge]

There is also a difference between having huge subject knowledge and being a good teacher of that subject.
That’s one of the reasons I was drawn to primary, I was fascinated by how we learn, and the different methods and approaches necessary to ensure full access to knowledge. Being a teacher rather than merely an expert in a subject or three is more challenging.
OP, you’ve managed to piss off a lot of people with your clumsy, I’ll-phrased opinions. This is probably an area you need to think about working on before you launch into relationships with parents, pupils and your fellow teachers. NQT and the first 3 years is a struggle for many to survive and stay in teaching, even tougher if people think you’re a tactless critic.

[Mammyloveswine]

@fedup21