Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
The staffroom

Whether you're a permanent teacher, supply teacher or student teacher, you'll find others in the same situation on our Staffroom forum.

Original poster

Student 'can only do' 8.30-3.30

365 replies

SpringisSpringing · 14/03/2018 20:18

I'm fairly new to teaching so I really don't know what to do. I don't want to be responsible for failing someone.

It's just not enough time. I don't get the chance to talk to her properly.

She's okay. Not great- but if I actually had time to mentor her she might get better!

OP posts:
donquixotedelamancha · 14/03/2018 21:19

All this has really started since ITT became so focused on schools. Back in the day, all proper feedback came from the university who visited every so often. It was a very different world. Half the teachers whose classes I took didn't even turn up to the lesson

Unless you trained 20+ years ago (in which case I can't comment), I think you had a very unusual experience.

Piggywaspushed · 14/03/2018 21:21

Well, it was like being an actual student, in fairness (ie fun as well as educating). Which is what this person is!

And , yes, I trained 20 years ago...God, I wouldn't want to be a trainee now. It's so earnest and serious and all consuming.

Original poster
SpringisSpringing · 14/03/2018 21:21

Yes, there is the element of worry that I have to pick up the reins again after her placement. I want to discuss how and what she is teaching.

OP posts:
Piggywaspushed · 14/03/2018 21:24

It is hard and we can end up feeling a bit 'controlling'. I just took back a class from a student who had gone a few steps backwards with a group. it didn't honestly take long to restore order/ get things back the way I wanted them to be.

donquixotedelamancha · 14/03/2018 21:28

I want to discuss how and what she is teaching.

That is not unrealistic (or controlling). It's the bare minimum. Someone who doesn't do that can't possibly get good enough to pass ITT.

StickStickStickStick · 14/03/2018 21:31

Wow I've just twigged it was nearly 20 years ago I trained....

mathanxiety · 14/03/2018 21:35

BossWitch Wed 14-Mar-18 20:24:11
What is she going to do about childcare when she is in the job for real?

A student teacher with responsibility for a baby or young child should not be penalised if she (and it is very often 'she') has childcare difficulties.

Would it be possible to speak with the student to find out what exactly the problem with childcare is, and to see how it could be fixed/refer her to resources, rather than see her potentially fail?

In a primary, can you suggest how a student gets feedback and discusses plans with their paired class teacher, if one of them has to be in front of the class at all times except for 90 minutes PPA 1x per week?
Can no discussions take place by e-mail or on the phone? Do meetings have to be face to face?

Necessary feedback between lessons is not going to take more than a couple of minutes, and that is not what I am talking about here. Wrt filling in on SEN, focusing on particular children - background info can easily be emailed, and it often makes it easier to refer to if written.

cantkeepawayforever · 14/03/2018 21:37

Of course. I sent vast swathes of information by e-mail to my student at the beginning of the placement.

If the OP's student said 'I can only be physically in school from 8.30 - 3.30, but I am available every evening from 5 pm - 8pm if needed to talk at your convenience' that would be very different from 'I am here 8.30-3.30; that is it'

ReceptionTA · 14/03/2018 21:39

As a TA who is contracted 8:30-4pm, but three days a week I stay until 5pm for fun I can't help raising my eyebrows at this.

A colleague of mine today took a before school maths club from 8am (was in from. 7:45am) taught the class all day covering absent teacher (incl a child who needs virtually 1:1, which is her usual job) and left at 4pm. All on the pay of a TA2, and with no other TA help.

What will this student do next year? She won't beable to go home at 3:30pm then!

cantkeepawayforever · 14/03/2018 21:39

We often have a relatively brief chat of guidance / feedback at the end of the day (after 3.30 pm, as at that point we are still in contact with children), followed by e-m,ailing of detailed plans and feedback on those much later in the evening. That works fine. however, having to do without the brief chat would simply make the placement impossible.

Viviennemary · 14/03/2018 21:40

It depends what is the usual for students these days as to whether this is acceptable or not. I suppose when she has a proper job she will be able to afford childcare. Perhaps it's a cost issue. But it still doesn't seem very satisfactory. I agree that if part of the job is attending meetings and listening to feedback and she can't then she won't pass. I'd bring this up sooner rather than let her coast along thinking it's fine to leave early.

ScattyCharly · 14/03/2018 21:45

I think that is a very poor attitude from the student to waltz in and state what hours she can/will do. If she can see no solution to her childcare issues, she should have come in and let you know about these problems and asked if there was any way to find a mutually agreeable solution. Instead of I cannot, I will not...

You would not be responsible for failing her. She would be responsible for failing.

Piggywaspushed · 14/03/2018 21:47

But, as a more general point ,we do need to move away from the world where leaving after the bell is regarded as leaving 'early'.

I am obviously old school. Or just old.

cantkeepawayforever · 14/03/2018 21:52

Piggy,

In general - for non student teachers - it doesn't matter where the work gets done, as long as it gets done. Some teachers stay in school, others go home, all get planning, marking and resourcing done - no problem.

However, for a student, part of the job is to discuss their planning, marking, teaching and resourcing with - in primary - their class teacher. That is much more normally done face to face, and can only be done before or after the core 'child contact' school day. To be unable to do it face to face but offer a viable alternative, such as a regular phone conversation or e-mail would be acceptable. to state it in a take it or leave it way isn't. They can't do their job of being a student, even if they can later organise their own workload as a teacher such that it is possible most of the time (except for meetings with parents, colleagues, staff meetings, after school clubs,. etc etc)

TheFallenMadonna · 14/03/2018 21:54

I trained 20+ years ago and definitely received feedback and written observation notes from class teachers, and I had a mentor meeting once a week. What was different was that I got QTS straight away so no paperwork in my first year of teaching. I did still have a mentor.

cantkeepawayforever · 14/03/2018 21:57

Also I believe - i may be wrong - that the adaptation of the lesson for tomorrow based on the lesson and marking from today is 'the norm' in primary and perhaps less so in secondary. It is, IME, what student teachers need most discussion about: they can teach standard lessons from a medium term plan, but the tweaking and adaptation and grouping and perhaps extra support materials based on what happened today is something that as an experienced teacher I can do 'on the fly' and without too much thought, but as a trainee is harder to do.

TuftedLadyGrotto · 14/03/2018 22:01

No employed teacher can be expected to stay after directed time. Which is usually 10-15mins after pupils leave. I've known teachers who leave at 3.15pm they take they work home. Obviously they stay for the one meeting a week.

Some of comments on here are bizarre. You can't fail a student for leaving at 3.30. I used to leave my PGCE placement at a similar time. I car shared with others and our commute was 1.5 hrs.

leccybill · 14/03/2018 22:09

I leave at 3.45 (20 mins after the children) three days a week. Stay late the other two days for meetings.
I work at home 7-9pm usually, it works for me. I'm too tired and grumpy to work straight after the bell, I need food, a shower and a nap first!

cantkeepawayforever · 14/03/2018 22:12

Leccy, as I keep saying, that's fine - for an experienced teacher, that would be fine anywhere I have worked, and i work very similarly to you.

However, a student teacher who is only in school for the hours when both she and her class teacher are in front of children, and thus having minimal time for actually being coached to teach better, and who is offering no viable alternative plan (e.g. call or e-mail in the evenings) is not so fine.

Piggywaspushed · 14/03/2018 22:19

can a secondary teacher absolutely has to modify their nest lesson with a class(which may well be the next day) based on a lesson : that is part and parcel of our job, too. But I would expect a student to get to the point where they could do that without endless feedback and discussion : and that they could plan a sequence of lessons which could be shared in advance ( my last student was frustratingly poor at this I must say) verbally or via email and then it need only be a v quick chat if necessary about what might need to be tweaked.

Changebagsandgladrags · 14/03/2018 22:22

This is a bit worrying. I'm starting my PGCE in September. The child minder opens at 7.45. If a school is more than 45 minutes away I will have a problem.

I'll be sharing childcare with DH. His job has much much much higher pay than a teacher. My job will be a very far second priority.

I will only be able to either arrive early or leave late. Not both. So if I stay late I'll need to do childminder drop off that day.

When I finish the PGCE I'll be looking for a relatively local job or none. A 1.5 hour commute just will not work.

cantkeepawayforever · 14/03/2018 22:23

Piggy, 30 minutes at the end of the day - for at least 5 lessons on 5 different subjects - is definitely not 'endless'!

I also agree that in the course of a placement the amount of verbal feedback given reduces - and the amount of autonomy a student earns increases. So at the end of a placement that is going well, of course a student can leave whenever they would if they were employed to teach the class, as long as daily marking, planning and resourcing is done competently.

But no time for any verbal feedback from day 1?

cantkeepawayforever · 14/03/2018 22:24

Change, that is usually fine - and experienced teachers tend to fall into the 'one of the other' as well - you either get all resources ready and the room set up the night before, or in the morning, Both is unnecessary.

8.30-3.30 doesn't offer either. I start playground duty at 8.30 am....

LucyLastik · 14/03/2018 22:26

I'm currently training and the expectation is that I am in school by 8 and I don't leave until at least 5. That is set by the uni.

I sympathise with the childcare problem as I have to manage 3 kids myself on a pretty poor salary but I accept you have to take the rough with the smooth.

I do have weekly meetings, usually during ppa time which can be a ball ache for the teachers because they want to plan. I have 2 mentors; one class mentor who is also the teacher and sees me teaching all the time/does weekly obs etc and a lead mentor who I meet with a couple of times every half term. Some of this has to happen outside of contact time unfortunately.

Piggywaspushed · 14/03/2018 22:29

Well, I think it's a lot cant and I'm not just thinking about the student's workload here! But I guess I kind of forget that you would both be planning for the same class, I suppose. if I had to do that every day with a student who took just one of my groups, I'd have the rest of my classes to think about after our session and that would wipe me out! I will admit I felt a bit stressed with my most recent student who took 30 mins up after school regularly with me and then I felt I still had a load of other stuff to do. And I wasn't her mentor.

I do agree it's not ideal but I think a conversation needs to be had at OP's school about how to make it workable. This student does only have one other teacher to liaise with rather than 4 or 5 so hopefully there's a solution.