has anyone experienced a perfectly FINE kid becoming a 'thing' at school?

[Lordnoobson]

normally (IME) as a result of the parents?
Does anyone find that sometimes involvement of agencies makes things worse and if they just chivvied the kid along and ignored them and their parents a bit and told the parent to stop making up ridiculous syndromes the kid would actually be FINE?

Good God Noob, I hope you are not a teacher.

As a teacher I wish this could be removed from 'The Staffroom' topic - it certainly doesn't represent my views or those of any decent teachers I know. It is making me want to apologise on behalf of the teaching profession...

With as blatantly as prejudiced view as that, I bloody well hope you never teach my child. Although to be honest, we have come across plenty of similar teachers throughout his education so far.

No-one at my ds's school agreed that there was anything wrong with him throughout Foundation Stage or KS1, while I was watching him struggle on a daily basis and desperately trying to get him the help and support he needed. They saw no problems when he was alone in the playground day after day, when he screamed and tried to run, covered his eyes/ears whenever they played a DVD and failed to understand the expectation that he should treat adults any different than his peers. Then miraculously, just as he was moving to the juniors they finally admitted they thought I may be right and it might be worth someone looking into it. Of course by that time it meant any investigations and support would come out of the Junior School's budget - not theirs'.

Too little too late, within weeks of starting the juniors, my 7 year old ds ended up having a breakdown and the KS2 staff also tried to deny there was anything wrong.

Fortunately for us, we didn't have to go private, as we were lucky enough to have access to a LA, Ed Psych crisis line who reacted quickly, kicked the school's backside and recommended him for a full ASD assessment. It still took the NHS another 18 months to actually complete their assessment and give him the diagnosis though - if I'd had the money I would have gone private - and guess what? The diagnosis would have been the same!

That was just the start of things, there was then the fight for his statement (which school insisted he wouldn't get because he wasn't bad enough and conveniently lost all his school records just when the LA asked for evidence, among other underhand tactics). Yet again they were proved wrong, he was assessed and statemented on the first application without any misgivings on the part of the LA and his statement was far from low-needs. Of course the school then proceeded to ignore that too - as apparently they knew better than all the professionals involved in assessment and statementing, as well as all the ones that had diagnosed him.

Fast forward 4 years and I am watching exactly the same situation unfold with a friend's dd - at the same primary school. The girl concerned had an extensive and lengthy multi-disciplinary assessment. Every single professional was in agreement that she fitted the diagnostic criteria for a diagnosis - and what to do the school say when her Mum approaches them to inform them she's been diagnosed? That they don't see any problems and therefore they have no intention of giving her dd any support whatsoever.

The sheer arrogance of thinking you know better than either the parents or the qualified professionals that have made this child's diagnosis is astounding. Teachers have very little - in some cases almost zero - training in SEN/SNs, yet still think they know best/better than those that either live with them 24/7 or have spent years training and specialising in the area.

Private or not, they don't just hand diagnoses out to children like sweeties - not even if you pay for it - and what makes you think that any parent who loves their child enough to fight that hard for them would want them to be 'labelled' (as it has been put on this thread) with such a diagnosis if it wasn't both applicable and necessary to obtain the support they need?

Arrogance doesn't even begin to describe it. In fact it's so wrong that I can't even think of a word strong enough.

Honestly, I despair.

Excellent post moosemama. Totally agree.

I used to work with autistic children. The rigmarole their parents were put through, the proofs, the documentation, the waiting, was appalling. I worked with children for years. Sometimes, a visiting relative would ask me what I thought "is X really autistic?". How could I say yes or no. All my knowledge, all my experience, working with a number of children, I was not a doctor, a paediatrician nor a diagnostician. In no way was I able or willing to give an answer.

I am astonished, op, that you are.

Well said Moose

Because of masking and not causing any disruption or being too far behind in her work, school said my dd was FINE and dismissed my constant concerns until I insisted something was done, she was assessed aged 11 but it was far too late for her emotionally, she was in pieces.

If she had received the recognition of her difficulties and been given help she would have been a different person. As it is, the mental scars left from her "education" at state primary school where she was ignored 'chivvied along' are more than evident every day even now at age 22. All her self-confidence and self-esteem were eroded there and no matter what I do I cannot undo the damage that those teachers caused by not recognising her difficulties.

MrsHerculePoirot, Thank-you, but I'm sorry to say, ask any parent of a child with SN, the OP's attitude is far more common in schools than yours.

Well said Mooseyou are spot on.

Op - I feel sorry for any child that has you a teacher, perhaps you need a career rethink

Brilliant moose

You also touched on something which I think is really key too: the arrogant and dismissive way so many "professionals" (schools, sencos, LAs etc - and the OP) talk about a 'private' diagnosis, like it's somehow not a real one.

As if somehow private paediatricians, psychologists etc are just charlatans off the street with no training. Fgs, just like in medical practice, you could see the same paediatrician privately that you might meet a year later at your NHS appointment. Same diagnostic criteria used, same training, same experience. Just like an Ed Psych.

The only difference is that a private paed/EP might take more of an interest as a) they can devote more time, and b) there is no need for any partiality ie they don't make a judgement based on budgets knowing what the local authority will be prepared to fund

Local authorities take their time to diagnose as they know that when they do, they'll have to put their hand in their pockets to fund support. And schools know they too have to provide funding, so it's just so much easier to blame parents.

I know several families both in RL and here that have had a private diagnosis which has later been fully backed-up by NHS. The only opposition they face is from extraordinarily arrogant non-experts like the OP.

Well said moose - sounds so similar to our situation too. I'd like to think the OP isn't a teacher but, as we all know, they certainly exist as we've come across them too often. You know, THOSE sort of teachers.

So none of you can envisage a situation where the parents have some other, maybe not entirely child-centred, motive for producing some kind of diagnosis for their child? There really ARE parents out there with Munchausen's by proxy. There really ARE parents who are so desperate for extra financial help that they will use Google to find symptoms which they think will get them what they want, especially if they see a relative or neighbour getting some help for their child.
It's an unpleasant thought and I really hope it's rare and unusual. But it will happen from time to time. Because there is nothing that humans won't do.
I can think of only two sets of parents over my teaching career that I doubted. There were many, many more parents who fought tooth and nail for their children to get the kind of help those children needed, even if it didn't suit the senco/Headteacher/county council to give that help. But you absolutely can't say that every parent is always trying to do the right thing by their child. Sometimes parents are selfish and end up doing the wrong thing by their child, for the wrong reasons.

I'd also like to say that I think bialystock is, sadly, spot on with her comments about local authorities taking their time to diagnose in order to put off the evil day when they'll have to fund support.

Aspergic? Or " is the kid autistic?" Wtf? I seriously hope you are taking the piss! I cannot imagine anyone in a professional capacity writing like this!
< and breathe >

I wish I could say my ds never had to deal with anyone like you in his years at school. I only wish I had learned to advocate for him earlier.

"I can think of only two sets of parents over my teaching career that I doubted. There were many, many more parents who fought tooth and nail for their children to get the kind of help those children needed."

Clearhopewater, the NSPCC report into FII says that a large teaching hospital will only see one or two cases each year, while most paediatricians will only manage one or two cases in their entire career. www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/research/briefings/fii_wda83361.html page 5.

The thing is, until yesterday I looked like "that mother". As I said up thread, a pediatrician refuses to see dd2 until I have the support of another professional. Two SALTS said she was ok. SENCO says she's ok, etc. I knew she was drowning so I withdrew her from school.

Yesterday an (NHS) OT told me that dd2 does have difficulties, needs intervention and I need to fight for a cognitive/developmental assessment after all.

It takes years if the cold isn't a problem to the school.

Regarding MBP, earlier this year it was subtly suggested that I had MBP. Someone very close to me suggested that I have my own mental health assessed, and stop this need of mine for labelling my child for my own satisfaction.
This person still refuses to believe there is anything "wrong" or "different" with ds, and will regularly present me with a rant about why Dh and I are failing him, why we are making him not normal.

There is growing evidence that mothers (as it's usually mothers) are right about their concerns, but have had the misfortune of their children being investigated and taught by teachers, drs and other professionals who will only believe what they see. In these cases, there's only a tiny leap to start thinking MBP.

The thing is, I have videos and voice recordings of ds to prove what is going on, but to untrained eyes/ears, he is simply being a naughty boy who needs a spank or two (yes, that has been recommended several times), they are evidence of him being manipulative and using power to be in control (and make his life shit in the process - oh yes, but the reward is the power). To anyone who doesn't know about ASD (or other conditions that show similar behaviour), he is just another 9 year old, and all children behave like that sometimes.

My turning point was buying a book called Learning to Live with High Functioning Autism.
I bought copies for schools and for my parents.

I've included photos of some pages you might find interesting (if the photo is clear enough!)
Reading these pages for the first time made me cry, and helped me to grow a pair and fight for ds. (Still on that rollercoaster with many highs and lows, but this book never fails to help drag me back upwards for ds's sake)

Over the years there have been several threads from parents of dc with EDS who are not taken seriously with their worries about their children, and have been accused of fabricating illness.
Also how many threads (and cases in RL) have there been of schools not taking medical issues seriously, because they know best (my own ds ended up having a bad asthma attack, because when he asked for his inhaler, it was refused because he could talk)

In cases where teachers doubt a problem, I strongly believe that they are not in any position to even think about MBP.
If you believe a parent is fabricating, you are not qualified to either diagnose the child or the mother. Leave it to the professionals and support the child as best you can.

Bloody hell, DishwasherDogs. That's a scary list, and probably accounts for the grilling I've had so many times when I've managed to get DS to a doctor

'And is there any reason you are so often anxious about this child, MsInsane, hmmm?'
'Let's see, you bloody patronising twat, he's skeletally thin, talks to almost no one, screams at loud noises and doesn't sleep, which makes most parents really happy and relaxed, right?'
'So you're saying you have trouble knowing how to feed and discipline him, hmmm?'

I haven't read the thread.

In school I was FINE, out of school my parents thought I was difficult, unruly, impossible to live with, but in the same breath I was told to get on with it.

It started spilling out in school. I was crying a lot. Couldn't cope. Always in sick bay. But still I was FINE probably because my grades hadn't slipped.

I was fucking depressed, my parents were emotionally abusive (no bruises no abuse, FINE) and no one helped me.

So you are being ridiculous OP. I would rather a few children got help and support that they didn't really need, than see children who are in great need being doubted.

Oh right, yes OP that would be because as part of a teaching degree you also get the training for diagnosing special needs in children and mental health issues in adults, don't you? Oh, wait there, no you don't do you?
Oh, so, you must have done extra degrees as a doctor then? And an educational psychologist? Wow, I'm impressed you find the time to even post on MN given how busy you must be, what with teaching and keeping up your clinical hours in child and adolescent mental health and adult mental health.
Thanks for sharing the wisdom of your extensive knowledge with us, your pupils, parents of pupils, patients, clients and their families must heave a sigh of relief when you walk in to school/clinic/hospital.
Oh wait, sorry, this was a joke thread wasn't it. Oops, must be my 'fine' special needs and my non existent MBP causing a sense of humour failure there.
FFS OP if this is for real, keep it to your fucking self. Or do everybody a favour and re-educate yourself, rather than mangling children's education.

I understand where you are coming from.

There is a culture in some schools that nurtures the view that teachers know children better than parents do and that the child you see in the classroom is the real thing.

You need to educate yourself better about the ability of children, particularly anxious children to mask their difficulties in order to avoid conflict and attention.

My DD1 had a year of serious mental health issues as a result of the damage done by several years of masking. All of her teachers thought she was fine until one came to the house to attempt some home tutoring. He was visibly shocked by the state of her and apologised for not having supported her better in school.

I have paperwork written by my DD2's primary head teacher stating categorically that my DD2 is fine in school and is clearly manipulating me. Two years after leaving that school she has a statement, full time one to one TA support instigated by her current head teacher and and agreement to fund a place in a small independent school from next September. She may have looked fine but she very clearly wasn't.

You have a lot to learn about neurodevelopmental disorders. Please, please do yourself and the children you teach a big favour and use finding out about this as part of your professional development.

I've only ever met one parent that I thought might have mbp and it certainly wasn't because she was seeking support or advice etc for her child. She was referred to social services although I don't think they treated it seriously.

The vast vast majority of parents are genuine and want the best for their child. Making assumptions about their motives or the professionalism of specialists is not helpful.

Thank you Moose and Dishwasher for putting into words what I couldn't do well. But you do realise that stating anyone has in your opinion MBP or FIS is so beyond wrong it is only a clinical psychologist who can diagnose this, and be stating this to be true you create an environment where a parent or mother in my case can be labelled wrongly for years while only ever trying to help her child.

My sons school did just this over the summer, they decided his private diagnosis wasn't worth the paper it was written on, told a family member they would support full removal of my son from my care and were nearly very successful.

The turning point was where I had to reach back out to the private sector and have a personal assessment done of me just prove these people wrong and yet that label sticks, I fight it every day and the damage is done, I now need an advocate to attend all appointments for ds and live in real fear of what someones words might still cause my son to be removed, despite being cleared by ss. So please before rushing to judgement despite what you may think is an open and shut case do not label a parent with a devastating label such as MBP or FIS, it is so rare.

Wasnt even going to comment as it's beyond scandalous- unfortunately not that unusual though. My old headteacher laughed at a diagnosis of PDA of a new pupil- implying what kind if diagnosis is this?
It was laughed about in the staffroom and the mother mocked. I did try to educate them but probably did no good. He did eventually get a 1-1 who used totally the wrong strategies for a child with PDA ie. shouting.
I truly hope these replies have changed some teachers thinking.