Time to either prosecute Andrew or forget him.

[Bougainsillier]

Firstly let me say I am in NO way defending him; hes clearly completely awful in so many ways. Finally stripped of all titles and position, and dumped over in Norfolk, but still not charged with or found guilty of any crime.

But it’s starting to feel like he’s being tried by the press now to sell stories. Isn’t there enough evidence to prosecute? Is there a cover up? Or can we just leave him to himself now? It’s news headlines endlessly…

Mandelson in the other hand is another matter..

I'm not surprised you lose count if you can't see the difference between defending a man and explaining a legal position.

Talking of defending... awful article in the Telegraph more or less saying Andrew has been hounded out of his home (Royal Lodge) and we should all leave him alone and basically he didn't know what he was doing.
The writer is female and has been groped in the past but so what

That's alright then...😒

But nobody knows the true legal position, because the trade envoy documents are sealed. The Met has decided that there is nothing to see here, despite the fact that they provided close protection officers to Andrew who were put up in Epsteins house and managed to lose several records of Andrews whereabouts. The reason it is dragging on for so long is because the whole thing dtinks of a massive cover up. If they could rip the plaster off and drag everything out into the open, tell Andrew to talk to the FBI it may go some way to ending it so Andrew can live in his latest mansion in peace. The fact that they are still covering up leads to suspicion that what we do know isnt as bad as what we dont know. And what we dont know is sealed for 100 years. Just like we spent nearly 100 years blaming Wallis Simpson for Edward viii abdication then suddenly records are released showing he was a nazi spy and traitor. The poor woman did us a huge favour. We should have a statue of her built instead of QEII

But nobody knows the true legal position, because the trade envoy documents are sealed.

Which is why I have offered precisely zero conclusions about what might come out of that issue, other than to say I think it should be investigated.

The point is that assessments are being made about the legal position before a thorough investigation has been made.

I may not be a lawyer, but as I understand it, when someone is suspected of a crime, the police investigate first and then that evidence is sent to the CPS or the appropriate legal authority and an assessment is made on the basis of all the evidence gathered as to whether the case can go to court.

The idea being that the police have greater legal powers to investigate alleged criminality than a historian author, an investigative reporter, or even ordinary concerned citizens posting on social media.

So let’s get the sequence right, let’s have an investigation first.

Sorry x-posted with RainbowBagels
who just said more or less the same thing!

The point is that assessments are being made about the legal position before a thorough investigation has been made

The point is, people keep saying that the fact that Virginia was over 16 is irrelevant because she was trafficked, and that is incorrect.

There are different questions here: what is the law that would apply to the facts that we know (that can be assessed, it’s a matter of record). Then there is what would the outcome be if a case s brought against Andrew based on those laws. On the latter question we can only speculate about what might happen, as no cases have gone to trial.

Thank you, I knew I'd read it somewhere.

This isn't some little kid who has had his play station removed for doing something naughty. He's abused young women, he's leaked information to a known criminal and god knows what else.
Hes had a slap on the wrist, he needs investigating and punishment to fit his crimes.

He should be treated the same as Mandelson and if he isn’t then what is the reason for that?

Get those Trade Envoy documents opened.
If AmW was passing info on he should be charged same goes for Mandelson.

Well said.

Wouldn't it be simpler to get rid of courts and the legal system and just do trial by social/media within the highly intelligent people who participate in that? nope can't see any disasters waiting to happen in that

when someone is suspected of a crime, the police investigate first and then that evidence is sent to the CPS or the appropriate legal authority and an assessment is made on the basis of all the evidence gathered as to whether the case can go to court
If it was absolutely clear that this is what is happening with AMW then fine. But records of his time as trade envoy have been sealed for 100 years. Why? How come someone followed around 24 hours a day, with photographic and official email evidence of him colluding with convicted criminals is not enough evidence of a police investigation? The police cant even enter into any properties without his brothers say so, and havent for 20 years. The issue isnt trial by media its no possibility of any trial at all. A foreign Senate has had to demand a foreign President release foles and because they couldnt care less about protecting our RF its come out. If not for that none ifvthis woukd be happening. Our establishment are protecting the RF from criminal investigation.

The King has made it clear that he will support the police in any investigation. I don't think it's the palace who are keeping the trade envoy records sealed but the government/ civil service. Why isn't pressure being applied there where they can legally do something about it?

If I was a betting person it’s not only AMW implicated in the TE records.

It’s remarkable that the only men facing accountability for this are Brits. A lot of American predators seem to be getting a pass on this. No sympathy for AMW or PM but disgusted at how the Americans are being protected.

Exactly. Its an establishment cover up but no civil servants etc are entitled to have public records sealed for so long. Only members of the RF. The people being protected are being protected because they turned a blind eye to AMW activities, or participated in them knowing they were protected because he was. People have gone on record to say they repeatedly raised concerns with TLQ about AMW and they were not just ignored but threatened. Do Royalists really think the RF have a working system of checks and balances surrounding them? That they havent covered up or ignored what was happening right under their noses? That there is absolutely nothing else they could have done in this and its all everyone elses fault ( civil servants, staff, epsteins victims, any non Royal person, Republicans, hecklers ) but they dont have to do anything to look at themselves and their procedures?

Behave

I'm doing that. I've written to my MP. So should everyone else who wants the trade envoy records unsealed.
But I think the palace have a hand in sealing these records up in the first place

Maybe they did, it was a different regime then, but at this point I don't care who sealed them, I'm more concerned with unsealing them and addressing any financial irregularities for the future. It may lead to Andrew being prosecuted, it may not, but if it leads to lasting change and stops others exploiting a public role for private gain then all to the good.

You cannot truly believe what you are writing
Why are you trying to defend these people ?
You know they have known about Andrew for years .Epstein was convicted in 2008 .

They see nothing wrong in what Andrew did. They still don’t . This talk of ‘supporting the police’ - where was that when the FBI were trying to speak to Andrew ? They were then blocked from serving papers
Charles and Saville, Mountbatten, Ball .

The Windsors knew Epstein was a convicted pedophile when they twice issued official statements- unprompted, to call Andrews accuser a liar .

I know this is all horrific but wake up .

Such a reasoned post as always.

But it wont if the RF can say ' nothing wrong here' about their own wider family conduct. The RF need to look at their processes, whether their staff have been leaning on public servants to cover things up, whether TLQ ignored concerns and how she was able to do that, whether their staff were threatening police protection officers right up to a few days ago, as has been claimed. Are their staff just doing this unilaterally? How and why? Why can they ( at best) not keep a track of their staff ifvthey are doing illegal things without their knowledge? The Royal household needs to look at their own procedures, as well as MP's needing to make sure they are properly scrutinising the RF activities. At the moment it looks like they are saying only AMW is at fault and the whole thing is nothing to do with them. Well it should be, as they have been there all the way through, doing nothing but obscuring, ignoring and covering up.

I agree with you and said something very similar on, maybe another thread they are all getting confused in my mind now. I shoukd really just stick to one thread.

If you are interested in how the palace works then, if you haven't read it already, Courtiers, is a fascinating read. I think the author has done a follow up too which i must remember to download.