William and tax on the Duchy of Cornwall

[GardenDancing]

I keep reading that William doesn’t declare the amount of tax he pays on the Duchy of Cornwall. Apparently Charles did when he was Prince of Wales and sources say that William is paying appropriate tax, so why do you think he declines to be as transparent as his father was? I understand he isn’t obliged to share it, but people seemed annoyed and suspicious that he isn’t. If he’s paying appropriate tax like we are told, which I’m presuming is true, why wouldn’t he just share that to stop people speculating?

Crashing at the pad for a hands-on family outing to a West End musical before it closes? 🤓

They handed them over in exchange for a fixed sum (Civil List) to be debated regularly in Parliament.

That agreement was superseded by the creation of the Sovereign Grant in 2011 which arbitrarily tied royal income to profits generated by a state asset and freed them from the drudge of regular scrutiny in the process.

Alternatively

That agreement was superseded by the creation of the Sovereign Grant in 2011 which

-is reviewed by the Royal Trustees annually (Prime Minister, Chancellor of Exchequer and Keeper of Privy Purse) to monitor SG Reserve (if high SG is reduced) and prepare an annual report (separate to the accounts)

-must have the grant calculation reviewed at least every 5 years (decrease can be passed by Parliament without debate; increase must be debated and approved; most recently reduced from 25% to 12%)

-must have annual accounts presented to Parliament and scrutinised by the National Audit Office (previously several different departments looked at parts of Civil List spending); the accounts are public documents

As I said.

That doesn't really explain the reasons behind the sudden and rather random linking of royal income with profits from a state asset though.

Even George Osbourne who masterminded the deal couldn't explain the basis on which it was made.

If only there was another building in the centre of London which the public had just spent >£300m rennovating and had over 50 'Royal' bedrooms (plus 188 bedrooms for staff/peasants) where William and family could stay when in London.

I'd love to see a list of all the properties they actually own/use - there is probably at least 5 for every working royal.

The whole thing is ridiculous, and yet the PR team at the Palace must be magicians, because they've created a narrative where to criticise/downsize the Royal family is to be 'anti-British' - when this whole family of racists, grifters, adulterers & perverts (excluding Kate and the children) are the ones actually damaging Britain. It's an amazing deception, will we ever have a politician brave enough to call it out and suggest real change?

The government's not going to help any politician as they seem to think we're back in bowing and scraping era of times long past.

And they're the ones doing most of it!

I think a lot of people are wising up to the hypocrisy, the unfairness, the corruption, the lack of transparency, the PR tactics used etc. The internet and social media have allowed people to see what is really going on and to talk about it.

Not enough people, sadly.

The Duchies are much like trusts in that they are private assets held for future generations and so are not liable to Corporation Tax. Like all trusts, the income is assessed on the beneficiary. They are not murky at all.

Again, THE DUCHIES ARE NOT STATE OWNED!

They are not privately owned either. If the Monarchy was disbanded, Charles and William would not be running off into the sunset with them. They belong to the nation but are controlled by the royals

This explains it well

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/apr/05/who-owns-and-profits-from-the-duchies-of-lancaster-and-cornwall-timeline

The Duchies are state assets .
Yes the Windsors state they are ‘private’ but this is not true. If they were truly private they be paying their taxes wouldn’t they?

If William became a Catholic he’d lose the millions he takes annually from the Duchy because he’d no longer be heir . Therefore he does not own the asset .

When the Nazi king left he did not continue to pocket millions from the Duchy of Lancaster . He did not own it . No king, no duchy money .

The tax rip off needs to stop and the Windsors made to pay all tax due . But when the Windsors go they will not take the Duchys with them.

Yes the Windsors state they are ‘private’ but this is not true. If they were truly private they be paying their taxes wouldn’t they?

Well yes. The royals veer between them being private estates to them being state owned depending on which story benefits them at the time.

This article describes the muddle of the Duchies well!

They were pretty much bankrupt at one point, which seems to be why they weren't taken fully under state control - because the government of the day couldn't be bothered with them.

So they were allowed to inhabit this liminal space between state asset and private holding. And as you say, which one they are at any given moment seems to be at the whim of their respective Dukes.

Thank you for posting. That sets it all out very clearly.

The last sentence is quite striking:

Unlike during the accession of so many previous monarchs over the centuries, there is very little evidence of public disquiet or parliamentary rebellion over the now record sums the monarch and heir are extracting from the estates.

A couple of hundred years ago a government actually fell over the question of royal finances. I know the argument over parliament lying supine today revolves around the award or not of peerages and the like but surely there must be some MP's who are willing to take on the royal machine?

Yes the Windsors state they are ‘private’

This seems to be the heart of the matter.

The Windsors have said it so often and for so long it's just become an accepted part of the narrative culminating in the recent weasel words about the Duchy being 'a private estate with a commercial imperative'.

The Duchies are state assets and their income should be going to the Treasury not diverted into the already obscenely bloated Windsor coffers.

I feel uneasy for what William's reign might be like. I don't think he really wants all of this and he is going to do it his way and his way will certainly not include transparency (in my honest opinion)
More privacy, we won't see much of them unless they have to (state banquets, TroopingofColour, Cenotaph etc) They will intersperse that with carefully crafted videos and photos to keep us quiet.
I get the feeling he loathes being questioned in any way, so he will shore up everything to guarantee total privacy.
He said he wanted to do Royal with a small 'r'. I think we know what that means (see above)

Yep, I've mentioned in the other thread (about the book Royal Mint, National Debt) - the book covers the attempts by the RF to move these duchies from state to private by osmosis by simply using the word 'private' often enough even though it's a lie. It also covers many of the charities and emergency services which are paying William to use land which the state owns ?!?

Make it make sense 🤔

100%

I think you’re spot on with this.

Agree. There is a lot of 'He's prioritising his young family' going on for years with William, and he's managed to get away with doing very little as a result. However, he manages to also get praise for visiting all his Duchy properties and constantly being in touch with the numerous staff he has employed to run it. (something that personally enriches him to the tune of millions). Is that being done just during school hours so he can do the school run, or is it just his 'Royalling' that needs to be done during 10 and 2 term time only? There were also stories about how he doesn't believe in God, to a chorus of 'Why should he bother going to church- most people are atheists' excusing him already from his responsibilities as future Head of the Church of England. He gets huge free passes all the time. He thinks he will be able to get away with it as he always has- All the evidence points to the changes he wants to make being less work for him to do but surrounded by more secrecy around the finances of the RF so he can trouser more with less scrutiny. I hope that won't wash with the younger generation who would not have grown up with QEII but with scandal after scandal, crumbling public services and a King flying around between his several homes in his helicopter(s).

I wouldn't trust the Guardian on this and it definitely does not explain it very well at all.

Attempts at nationalisation of the Duchies back in the 1970s failed miserably and so they remain private assets (with oversight from Parliament). As private assets, failure of the Duchy would presumably result in the assets reverting to the settlor so they would descend down the royal line back to the deposed King as private assets.

The position of the Crown Estate is technically unclear although it is more likely to revert to the nation (but not necessarily and would depend on how the monarchy was abolished). Although the Estate's income and management was effectively exchanged for the Sovereign grant, legal ownership of the Estate has never been clarified in law. The question was asked in Parliament back in 2021 and the answer was "There is no precedent for what might happen to The Crown Estate land should the monarchy be abolished, and there is no such provision in statute."

Your post unfortunately shows a complete lack of understanding of the nuances of law.

However, he manages to also get praise for visiting all his Duchy properties and constantly being in touch with the numerous staff he has employed to run it. (something that personally enriches him to the tune of millions).

I am reading Norman Baker's new book (there's a thread on it) and ... whereas QE2 was fairly passive with the Lancaster Duchy and let them get on with it, this is not the case now W is in charge of Cornwall duchy. It's all about maximising profit and the people he has employed 😲😱
Very aggressive money making now

As private assets, failure of the Duchy would presumably result in the assets reverting to the settlor so they would descend down the royal line back to the deposed King as private assets.

Literally every single thing I have read does not say this.

Are you saying that... if we became a Republic, Charles and William would own the Duchies?
No. Not the case

1. The UK Crown Estates are not the UK royal family's private property, and the royal family are not responsible for any amount of money the Estates bring into the treasury. The monarch is a position in the UK state that the UK owns the Crown Estates through, a position that would be abolished in a republic, leading to the Crown Estates being directly owned by the republican state.
2. The Crown Estates have always been public property and the revenue they raise is public revenue. When George III gave up his control over the Crown Estates in the 18th century, they were not his private property. The current royals are also equally not responsible for producing the profits, either.