How have I only just realised this about Prince Andrew …

[LilacLemur]

I don’t know if I’m just oblivious to things but how have I only just realised Prince Andrew was 41 when he met Virginia Guiffre.

For some reason I thought this happened in the mid 80’s before he was married and definitely before children.

Knowing how old he was and that he had children just makes it so much more shocking (not that it needed to be).

Was anyone else blind to this?

The world is still run in the interests of men and men are very invested in protecting their own. You see it most overtly with the Taliban in Afghanistan, but also through things such as the low level of rape convictions in the U.K. Some men are very happy to point the finger at men of other races and religions as ‘the problem’ to further their political agenda, but will never acknowledge that men collectively are the problem. It’s always reminds me of that Germaine Greer quote, that women don’t realise just how much men hate them.

I will fall into the mumsnet trap of making everything about trans, but that debate really brought it home to me. The number of ‘nice’ men who I thought would at least understand women’s concerns, but inevitably centred and prioritised the feelings of a fellow man (that he’s a woman) over any worries women may have for their bodily safety and privacy. So, so many men simply see us as secondary human beings. They don’t share our outrage because we don’t actually matter all that much.

Agree. Look at the Gisele Pelicot case - hundreds of ‘normal’ local men easily came out of the woodwork in some back water in France.

@defrazzled a total wrong un

I think the extent to which the patriarchy normalises & builds itself (still) on the sexual subjectiication of women, meant the majority of elite males saw prostitution as a privilege of their position & power & completely normal. Poor VG was no different to the romanticised “courtesan” of old entertaining & pleasuring the rich & the noble. Why would any of them question what their system allows & sanctions them to do? The reality is that she was trafficked & abused & systematically raped by the many men Epstein rented her out to. I think the patriarchy defends & protects itself against any necessary intervention & dismantling of these norms, by making convenient scapegoats of the few that get caught, brandishing them as “evil” & “heinous”. But as another PP discussed eloquently further up, what about all of their complicit friends & acquaintances all benefiting from the spoils of this evil outlier Epstein? What about all his buddies who were willing recipients of his “hospitality”. It’s far more widespread & normalised by men who are notably being quiet about this. Indeed where is their outrage as a PP pointed out earlier? Do they actually have any? Wouldn’t they just be carrying on as normal, letting themselves believe that “high class prostitutes” are as old as time, who’ve been offering their services for years? VG was truly brave for what she did to whistleblow & attempt to hold to account this whole sorry underbelly of male privilege. And look what price it came at for her.

I think.it is totally normal for rich and powerful men to be surrounded by attractive young women willing to sleep with them.

Some (Melania Trump?) manage to benefit from it. Most don't. That doesn't mean everyone is trafficked of course.

How on earth did Hugh Heffner have a stream of young women (apparently) willing to.have sex with him? How did Weinstein get away with it for so long?

'So, what first attracted you to the millionaire Paul Daniels?' A quote that's stood the test of time.

I think.it is totally normal for rich and powerful men to be surrounded by attractive young women willing to sleep with them.

I totally disagree.

These men may think that, and so may you, but 99% of the attractive young women who are in the vicinity of rich and powerful men either in the workplace or socially are just trying to make a living, having a fun night out etc but are often subjected to their entitled sexually predatory behaviour, which in many cases leads to sexual assault and rape.

There wouldn’t be any redress in court now as she is no longer alive, you can’t sue some who is deceased, or their estate, I wish she had left a document with all the names of those high profile abusers who run the world.

Well, yes.

Wanting a fun night out? That's a choice, there are ways of having fun that doesn't involve fancy venues and champagne.

Having to have sex in order to earn a living? I lived on benefits in my 20s. It wasn't much fun, but I had a roof over my head and enough food to survive (I realise that might not be the case overseas). I can understand why other women would choose to exchange sex for money or other benefits.

That's different from sourcing vulnerable individuals, or changing the goalposts at the last minute when a victim can't walk away.

Sexual assault/rape is all too easy for men to get away with (BTW apparently Ghislaine Maxwell took part sexually as well as grooming girls, so some women as well). But there are also women who are willing to have sex with wealthy and powerful men in order to achieve their goals.

I wouldn't want it for myself or my DD. But there are others who would find it personally acceptable.

Edited for sp

I think there is some confusion here.

99% of women do not want to have to have sex to further their career / earn a living or to be harassed on a night out by rich powerful men - but they find themselves in situations where they are either coerced, sexually assaulted and/or raped by rich and powerful men. The assumption that there are many young attractive women consenting and facilitating is numerically wrong and a misogynistic belief.

Really?

Look at shows like America's Next Top Model. Young women queuing up to go on a show that routinely criticises and humiliates them. Because they want what it appears to offer them, fame and fortune.

Do you think Melania Trump fell for Donald Trump? Or for the visa and wealth?

We need to recognise how many women and girls are being exploited, but i don't think that aim.is helped by NOT recognising the agency some women and girls choose to use.

Sadly the patriarchal system means a lot of their agency does rely on their youth and appearance. But that doesn't mean every woman choosing to trade their appearance for benefits is abused.

It will come out, these things do eventually.

Am not a gossip; am providing an opinion/ statement on an internet site, exactly the same as you are doing
Photographic and written evidence is widely available
You may not believe it, but many others and I do
All opinions on this site are worthy of consideration; not to be dismissed with a brief sentence and exclamation mark

I meant proof that she had met him. And of course, all photographs are doctored…..

But, ask yourself this. If PA is entirely innocent, if he finds the whole thing abhorrent (as he claimed), if he distanced himself from Epstein, if he feels terrible for the women who were abused as girls, and if he wants to be seen to be innocent of the entire affair, then why doesn’t he work with the FBI to give his evidence against the people he knows were there?

He could name the people who were seen at the parties with very young women who might well have been underage. He could name the people who were on the island, touching and kissing semi naked young women who might well have been underage and yes, on reflection might well have been drugged, as he sat off to one side, sipping his Pimm’s, not sweating and looking on disapprovingly. He knew the guy for years, and even if he had no concrete knowledge anything nefarious going on, he has names, dates, times, locations, all of which could be a goldmine of information and allow the FBI to investigate fully.

Why wouldn’t he do that?

It's been really depressing to see that overall, the men talking about it don't get it. Even our King doesn't get the gravity of the message his inaction sends to his female citizens, particularly those who have been victims of assault by men, of which sadly there are many.

why doesn’t he work with the FBI to give his evidence against the people he knows were there?

Among other reasons - because the FBI appears to have shelved the investigation

Why wouldn't others do it? I saw a pic of Naomi Campbell with VG at her party. Why did she have these young women there? They were brought along by some of her guests maybe? Why has she not spoken out ? Why has Justin Bieber not given info against P Diddy ? We all know why. It's real life and people don't want caught up in it all. Some of you seem to be very naive about life.

What's your source for that 99%?

Side issue but let's not beat about the bush here - Asians in Rotherham.

I don’t accept gossip or rumour as evidence. I prefer verified facts.

I did consider your ‘opinion’ and expressed my conclusion. One sentence was sufficient to do that.

You’re on a forum. Expect to be disagreed with!

I’m not quite sure what more you expect from the King. As it stands, his brother is, in the eyes of the law, an innocent man. Andrew has been sanctioned to a pretty unprecedented extent by his mother and now his brother.

He should leave Royal Lodge voluntarily if he can’t be compelled legally to do so, If he was as “honourable” as he keeps claiming, he would do the decent thing and disappear. We all know he is not “honourable”. Quite the contrary!

It is not just that PA didn’t help any investigation into JE but also that he instructed his lawyers to pay the rumoured sum of $12 million to settle the civil case brought by VG . Who in their right mind would pay up , when they didn’t accept any liability .
He is of course “ innocent “ as he was never convicted or indeed faced any criminal charges .

I’ve just read he was gifted a fully staffed palace in the UAE, in Abu Dhabi.

For doing what?

Is anyone still wondering how he can afford to run Royal Lodge?

Edited to add that I didn’t mean to quote the above poster.

Yet when it’s (more often) white men doing bad things we don’t add on the ‘white’ bit do we?

You don’t understand how it works!

Reaching a settlement is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

You would pay up to avoid adverse publicity. You would pay up to avoid cross-examination and avoid your intimate personal information coming out in public.

And you would pay for economic reasons ie. where the costs of running the case would exceed the costs of settling.

It happens every day in employment law cases for instance.

I am amazed how many people don’t know this!!

And technically, yes, he is ‘innocent’ as he has not been tried or convicted.