Will the Duke of Sussex title die out ?

[Twistybranch]

I’m the first to admit not understanding exactly how Royal Dukedoms work.

It’s my understanding that Harry can pass his Dukedom to Archie? happy to be told I’m wrong.

But usually what does come hand in hand with such a title is a family seat and the expectation that you have a son. Hereby setting up a system that ensures the dukedom lives on.

Neither of these exist in Harry and Meghans world. Yes, they have a fancy McMansion and millions in the bank but they don’t have a family seat of the Duke of Sussex to pass down. I also can’t see the message at home where it’s all about empowering women and lili expressing herself, that it’s important to have lots of kids and make sure they are boys and Archie will inherit the lot. Which is what happens in these aristo families right?

So the Dukedom will pass to Archie. Lilibet won’t be passed any title. Instead of rejecting the titles, Harry and Megan have set up the kids to understand that male primogeniture is what rules while given out a modern, progressive, empowering women message.

But Archie will have a Dukedom of a country that he is unlikely to live in and doesn’t have a family seat there. He isn’t going to be versed in the ways of how these aristo families sustain themselves over the centuries. So is he going to make sure he marries, has boys, has something to pass on to these boys. I can’t see that happening in the world Harry and Meghan have created. So the title dies out? Or does this pass on to someone else?

You have to wonder how much shorter GOT would have been if they only used senior titles 😂

@theduchessofspork you mean like this ?

I don't see any issue about Archie inheriting his father's titles as long as he is a British citizen. I think the question would arise if his citizenship were renounced, and if any male heirs were US but not UK citizens. Of course, they could retain the right for each generation to have a British passport so long as the citizenship chain is unbroken, in which case they could keep the Earldom of Dumbarton going even if the Dukedom reverts to the crown. There doesn't have to be any landed estate to go with it, but I'd agree there would be little point in that.

I don't believe the US government would recognise the titles though- Archie if he gets an American passport via his mother will be plain Archie Mountbatten-Windsor, which is after all what his parents originally said they wanted for him.

Because it was handed down. It passed Charles because he got a senior title & it passed Anne because she's female & Andrew for obvious reasons. And the Wessex Dukedom passed to James not Louise.

I don't think that's quite right. When his father died, Charles became Duke of Edinburgh automatically, just as QE2 became Dowager Duchess of Edinburgh. It is understood that the late Prince Philip wanted Edward to become DoE eventually, but it couldn't happen automatically without a lot of other deaths closer to the throne. Because Charles was already PoW, Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay there was no occasion when the Edinburgh title would be applied, but he held it. When he became King, he took a little while to confirm it but used the occasion of his brother's birthday to create him Duke of Edinburgh, for his lifetime only- his son is and will remain Earl of Wessex.

excellent

Also this is how H and W could sort it

That was what Scobie claimed, however, they seem to have changed their minds.
Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet are US citizens, surely?
This must mean they can be a prince and princess? I strongly suspect that their parents insist on others using those titles.

No it wasn’t handed down, it was Charles’ and then he gifted it out because he is King and he can. Inherited titles don’t bypass people just because they have other titles or dodgy reps. It’s not been given to Edward as an inheritable title, just for his lifetime. James has inherited an Earldom, as a normal title he will pass to his son if he has one, he won’t inherit a dukedom.

No the US govt wouldn’t, because the US doesn’t have titles. But the UK does so the person concerned still has them. Occasionally a 14th cousin in America/Australia/South Africa inherits an earldom.

At the moment at least Archie will be Duke of Sussex on Harry’s death, whether he uses it or not. I guess it’s possible the palace could remove that right when things have calmed down a bit, but it would be a faff. I can’t imagine they’d go so far as to remove the Earldom.

Isn't there a Scottish dukedom that ended up with a distant cousin in Australia?

I guess it’s possible the palace could remove that right when things have calmed down a bit, but it would be a faff.

The palace (as in the monarch) can't remove the dukedom. That would require an Act of Parliament. The monarch can remove Prince/Princess and HRH.

And my personal favorite "Lord of the Isles."

He is also Prince and Great Steward of Scotland, Earl of Carrick, and Baron of Renfrew.

Ooh yes. “Renfrew” was the name Charles used when he called Diana when they first got together 😆

Let's do this then please!!!!!

Whilst I would like H&M to have their titles removed because of their behaviour towards the WRF , I think the WRF are doing what they do best - playing a long game.

The longer H&M go on how they are the more they look more like Rutitanian Royals. Friend of DS's was briefly in a relationship to so someone who was a Venetian Count. Throughout Europe there are many who are technically Princess , Count etc.

I think what I would prefer is them being careful not to trade on the name.

I'm annoyed because there is a strong possibility that H has traded on his Royal status in the visa issue (still in the news). Then to have him become an American citizen and still expect his fellow Americans to bow, use the HRH title to him and his children is against our beliefs.

He can ask his employees to do so but not the average person on the street.

My cat is, "Marquesa, Gata Mysteriosa, Hunter of Legs and it is a bit of a pain at times so mostly she is 'Misty' or 'Marquesa'. Maybe she is due another title.

I fostered a cat who became known as 'Violet Elizabeth de Fuzzybum, guardian of the scarves'. So I suppose I could bestow that title on her.

I'm half fascinated by this stuff and half think titles are a farce.

Due to Lilibet being born outside the UK, her children will not automatically get British citizenship if they are also born outside the UK.

If both Archie and Lilibet continue to live their lives abroad, the possibility is that in one generation (Lilibet) and two generations (Archie) their offspring will be unable to claim citizenship automatically.

Alternative is a big rush to the UK to give birth there.

That's my DD's name, serenster! But we shorten it to Dani. Even on her passport it's condensed to "Danaerys Stormborn Targaryen" as the whole spiel wouldn't fit.

DD = Darling Dog, btw

I think it'll be strange for a girl growing up in California with the hyper distinctive name Princess Lilibet Diana.

It always makes me think of Katie Price's Princess.

If William is still POW when George gets married then he'll still be Duke of Cambridge so it won't be available for George.

It'll only become available for use by someone else when William becomes King and it merges with the Crown, or if William dies before becoming King then it'll be inherited by George.

No. He can use Duke of Cambridge.

I think he could use the Cambridge dukedom, on the general grounds that an eldest son can use the second most senior title of his father (except Cornwall, which is explicitly reserved for the heir)

It's the same situation (but up a notch in seniority) as James becoming Earl of Wessex when Edward became the Duke of Edinburgh. Edward still is the Earl, but as a courtesy it's used by his son now.

We don’t know whether the Wales’ children now use Wales as a surname, or have stuck with Cambridge (sensibly - I’m not suggesting I should know!). It was different for William and Harry as they were able to use “Wales” in all relevant circumstances from birth to marriage. But assuming George, Charlotte and Louis have probably used “Cambridge” as their surname at school etc for many years, maybe they have continued to do so. If that’s the case, using Cambridge as a courtesy title for George in later life may make good sense?

(I think they’d probably give him a title of his own though, as the bestowing of the Royal Dukedom has been used as a gift to mark the individual’s marriage. Saying “you can use one of your dad’s spare ones that is knocking around” doesn’t have quite the same message 🤣)