Will the Duke of Sussex title die out ?

[Twistybranch]

I’m the first to admit not understanding exactly how Royal Dukedoms work.

It’s my understanding that Harry can pass his Dukedom to Archie? happy to be told I’m wrong.

But usually what does come hand in hand with such a title is a family seat and the expectation that you have a son. Hereby setting up a system that ensures the dukedom lives on.

Neither of these exist in Harry and Meghans world. Yes, they have a fancy McMansion and millions in the bank but they don’t have a family seat of the Duke of Sussex to pass down. I also can’t see the message at home where it’s all about empowering women and lili expressing herself, that it’s important to have lots of kids and make sure they are boys and Archie will inherit the lot. Which is what happens in these aristo families right?

So the Dukedom will pass to Archie. Lilibet won’t be passed any title. Instead of rejecting the titles, Harry and Megan have set up the kids to understand that male primogeniture is what rules while given out a modern, progressive, empowering women message.

But Archie will have a Dukedom of a country that he is unlikely to live in and doesn’t have a family seat there. He isn’t going to be versed in the ways of how these aristo families sustain themselves over the centuries. So is he going to make sure he marries, has boys, has something to pass on to these boys. I can’t see that happening in the world Harry and Meghan have created. So the title dies out? Or does this pass on to someone else?

That’s different. The Duke of Edinburgh title was given to Prince Phillip, and then to Prince Edward, as a life peerage. The Duke of Sussex is a hereditary title, so will pass to Archie on Prince Harry’s death.

Interesting as I though York was like Princess Royal - but you are right it just keeps getting created a lot as either dying out or second son getting crown and getting absorbed into monarch titles again then re-created.

Thanks

The Dukes of Kent and Gloucester are a few generations down from sons of King George V and have sons to inherit the titles from them.

This has to be specifically provided for: e.g. as Lord Louis Mountbatten "had no sons when he was created Viscount Mountbatten of Burma, of Romsey in the County of Southampton on 27 August 1946, and then Earl Mountbatten of Burma and Baron Romsey, in the County of Southampton on 18 October 1947, the Letters Patent were drafted such that in the event he left no sons or issue in the male line, the titles could pass to his daughters, in order of seniority of birth."

There are some other historical examples, but it rare.

No, that’s not correct. It will revert to the Crown.

No it won’t, it’s been granted as a normal dukedom - so it will go to Harry’s male line descendants starting with Archie.

Yep, other than think most baroncys can go though the female line (only if there are no male line heirs to be found though) and in I think Scotland older ((pre union?) Earldoms can too.

If they follow tradition Prince Louis would eventually become Duke of York as it goes to the second son of the monarch. George V and George VI were both Dukes of York, as they were second sons. The late Queen was Princess Elizabeth of York.

It wasn't quite like that for Prince Phillip, Duke of Edinburgh.

On his death, his eldest son inherited it. But as Charles had a more senior title as Prince of Wales, it was not used.

When Charles became king, the title merged with the Crown because of the accession, and became available to be recreated at the monarch's discretion (which he did, in non-hereditary form, for Prince Edward on his birthday following the accession)

Royal Dukedoms (unless like the current Edinburgh as specifically lifetime only) are heritable much like the Downton model, and it doesn't matter that there is no estate or stately pile to go with it.

• They are in the male line only (they can be set up for both, but none of the current ones are). So the York dukedom will become extinct after Andrew because he had no male DC (it cannot go via daughters, so will not go to any sons of his daughters)
• After 2 generations, royal dukedoms cease to be royal. So the next heirs of the current royal dukedoms will be:
• following the current HRH Prince Richard the Duke of Gloucester, his son Andrew who will be His Grace the Duke of Gloucester, and
• following the current HRH Prince Edward the Duke of Kent, his son George who will be His Grace the Duke of Kent
• the Sussex dukedom will follow the Gloucester/Kent arrangements, so Harry's son will one day become HRH Prince Archie the Duke of Sussex. If he has a son, he will be His Grace the Duke of Sussex and so on ad infinitum. If he or his successors do not have any sons, like any dukedom, the title will become extinct (and therefore merge with the Crown and be available for re-creation at the monarch's discretion)

How on earth is it bashing them. It's a reasonable question. Its not bashing them at all

Where's the 'bashing'?

There is no bashing. Not that I can see. It’s musing on the title.

Prince Edward was the Earl of Wessex' s.
His son will take this title given on his wedding day.
Prince Andrew is the Duke of York. He has no sons, so not sure what will happen , as it could go to A grandson if the King says ok.
Prince Harry is Duke of Sussex. This will pass to Archie.
However Prince Edward was given a life time only as the Duke of Edinburgh. This then returns to the Crown on his death.
I reckon Prince Louis will get it one day. AND be The Duke of Edinburgh one day to keep it close the Crown.

Prince Edward's son is already the Earl of Wessex and I doubt very much he would be given a further title on marriage.

I doubt very much that, after the Dukedom of York becomes extinct when Andrew dies, that the monarch would elevate a great-nephew to one of the senior royal dukedoms (historically it has usually gone to the second son of the monarch, but because of the appalling reputation of the current one, I think it's more likely they'll hold it back for a generation or two)

Forgot he had already gained his father's old title. Thanks for reminding me, I appreciate it... x

Bet neither of them could point to Sussex on a map.

I don't know about the title, but what I do wish would die out is the cringey way some people refer to Meghan as 'Duchess Meghan'. No-one says Duchess Meghan! Or Duke Harry for that matter.

For me, 'duchess' doesn't have particularly flattering connotations - it always reminds me of Alice in Wonderland or of a ferociously overbearing character played by someone like Edith Evans!

Yes the York title is a bit of a poisoned chalice, given that a previous holder was Richard iii who has only recently been re- evaluated as less of a villain than previously portrayed 😆

Can't it go to one of his grandsons

On Andrew's death, it becomes extinct and merges with the Crown. You can make peerages heritable through the female line, but this one wasn't set up like that. And I don't think there would be any wish to change the nature of Andrew's title, as one change just opens a large can of worms

Yes, the monarch could re-create it and give it to pretty much anyone. But why would he give a senior royal dukedom to one of his great-nephews? Or you you think he should ennoble all his great-nieces and -nephews, even if in the female line?

Edited to add: or did you mean one of KC's grandsons? Yes, I think that's a possibility, if they want titles for the Wales DC on their matrimony. But after Andrew, they might want to leave it unused for a while, and give George a heritable dukedom, and the other two senior lifetime titles (probably Earl/Countess so their DC can be Lord/Lady, but it extinguishes after that (unless one of the holders gets a further title, perhaps as a result of opting to become a working royal)

Agree, I think there is going to be a huge overhaul of titles once William reaches the throne, I expect the Sussex Dukedom will be changed to not being passed down the family line by an act of Parliament, via letters patent Prince and Princess titles will be removed from Archie and Lily as per the Queen of Denmark’s lead and only George’s children will receive titles, not the children of Charlotte and Louis and also no immediate Dukedom’s awarded on marriage.

Always wondered if Charlotte would get the Edinburgh gig? Expect she’ll get Princess Royal when that time comes….

If Edward and Andrew don’t have inheritable dukedoms, it doesn’t make sense for Harry to have one.

Another anomaly for William to address once he takes the ‘reigns’

I believe rhis iscwhat happens. But, like Windsoe, I think it will be left to lie once it goes into abeyance.

I believe Andrew's is inheritable, but he doen't have a son to inherit it.