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The royal family

Hugh Grosvenor got a whopping £4 BILLION tax break from the British taxpayer when he became Duke of Westminster - what for?

211 replies

TallerSally · 07/06/2024 09:50

Yeah.

£4bn that could have been invested into public services in the UK. £4bn that hard-working tax-payers are having to make up for.

The usual feeble protests about this inheritance tax (IHT) break being the law or tradition just won't cut it - laws and traditions that aren't in the public general interest and just exist to uphold the privileges of a small (and in this case unarguably underserving) minority can and should be changed.

Because, what exactly has Hugh £10bn fortune Grosvenor done for the British public to deserve a £4bn IHT break?

And so pathetic to see the media skirt around the issue, as they fawn over his wedding today and try to faff about irrelevant peripheral pseudo-dramas instead.

£4bn, folks!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2024/06/07/duke-of-westminster-olivia-henson-wedding-latest-news/

Duke of Westminster wedding live: Hugh Grosvenor to marry Olivia Henson

Hugh Grosvenor, the Duke of Westminster, will marry fiancé Olivia Henson at Chester Cathedral on Friday in what will be the society wedding of the year.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2024/06/07/duke-of-westminster-olivia-henson-wedding-latest-news

OP posts:
Gall10 · 07/06/2024 15:10

Pieceofpurplesky · 07/06/2024 14:50

He's not a bad man though - donated £10 million to Covid relief, his estate provides a lot of food, employs loads of people and is working towards a sustainable future in agriculture. He could be a lot worse.

He has also provided free ice cream for anyone in Chester today for his wedding.

With his money he doesn't have to do any of this.

Crumbs for the poor! Ridiculous! Giving 10 million from his vast wealth is like me giving a couple of quid to a charity collector.

Ohthatoldchestnut · 07/06/2024 15:21

Gall10 · 07/06/2024 15:10

Crumbs for the poor! Ridiculous! Giving 10 million from his vast wealth is like me giving a couple of quid to a charity collector.

Tip of the iceberg....

"Additionally, he has led a major fundraising campaign for the Defence and National Rehabilitation Centre, which was initiated by his father and continues to support the rehabilitation of seriously wounded or injured members of the Armed Forces. The Duke and his family have personally gifted £105m towards the programme. The Defence clinical rehabilitation facility, to replace Headley Court and located near Loughborough, is now operational. The Duke remains closely involved in the creation of the National NHS specialist facility for civilians on the same site."

Plus, millions in grants via the Westminster Foundation.

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 07/06/2024 15:25

This is another non-story- unless you are someone with not the first clue about the U.K. tax system, estate management or family trusts.

we have a family trust because we have a family business which owns assets. It’s not that unusual.

londonmummy1966 · 07/06/2024 15:28

IHT is at heart a tax on a transfer of wealth from one generation to another. FOr most people who pay the tax it will be on wealth passing from parent to child on the death of the former. In order to ensure that wealth held in trusts is taxed the legislation takes a 2 pronged approach. If the trust is basically for the benefit of one person then the assets are treated as if they owned them personally and tax is payable when that persons interest ends (on death or a change in the main beneficiary) ass if that person owned the assets. However this doesn't work in a discretionary trust so the legislation imposes a charge every 10 years at 6% of the value of the assets. For an estate like the Grosvenor Estate this means that they can budget for the tax every 10 years which is potentially easier to manage than paying a big chunk every 40 years or so.

There are then also a series of rules that exempt certain assets from IHT or provide various other reliefs. These include private businesses - as its better for local economies and labour forces if family businesses don't need to fold in order for death duties to be paid as that is likely to be more costly in the long run than providing the relief. The same applies to farms. The rural estates would benefit from the latter as they are working farms. I don't know what the tax status of Grosvenor Estates is - the bit that owns the London properties - but I'd imagine some tax is paid and some is covered b the business exemptions - property businesses are a bit arguable.

LaMarschallin · 07/06/2024 15:30

I think the fact that this was started in the Royal Family section shows it's really not about a non-royal person's family trust etc

wordler · 07/06/2024 15:34

Gall10 · 07/06/2024 15:09

Bet the lucky sod gets to benefit from the trust though!

Yes - he does, he is very very lucky and gets a huge annual income from the trusts - that sum is taxed as income though.

This DOW had very little choice about how his inheritance was organized - he was only 25 when his father died and it was all set up the way it is way before that. What he does now with the the stewardship of the farming assets and his large wealth in general will be interesting.

His father sent him to state school rather than private school to try to make him understand his privilege and learn something outside the aristocratic bubble.

smilesy · 07/06/2024 15:47

LaMarschallin · 07/06/2024 15:30

I think the fact that this was started in the Royal Family section shows it's really not about a non-royal person's family trust etc

Absolutely

ManilowBarry · 07/06/2024 15:58

600 years after acquiring Cheshire, Sir Thomas Grosvenor married the 12-year-old Mary Davis, whose dowry included 500 acres of swampy bog west of the City of London.

In 1720, the family realised that London was suffering from overcrowding and the plague, so they drained the swamp and leased out the land to wealthy, aristocratic residents.

They then built mansions for the super-rich in Mayfair and by the early 1800s, started developing the southern area of the family land creating Belgravia.

When the third Duke of Westminster died in 1953, the estimated value of his estate was between £40 million and £60 million.

This attracted an inheritance tax liability of £11 million which at the time was the largest death duty liability ever paid to HMRC.

Thereafter, the Grosvenor family focused their considerable resources on minimising the tax liability each time the estate was passed on to successive generations.

As a result, the 5th Duke of Westminster decided to embark on a 12-year legal battle to prove that his grandfather’s brother, the 4th Duke died as a result of an exploding shell while commanding a unit in 1944 during WW2.

Despite the Duke dying 23 years later of cancer, his legal team were able to establish a questionable link between the war injury and cancer which led to his death. The Grosvenor fortune was therefore exempt from inheritance tax due to the Duke dying in ‘the service of his country’.

With rapidly escalating property prices, the estate which was worth tens of millions was set be worth hundreds of millions and by 1979, when the fifth Duke died, the Grosvenor fortune was now worth an estimated £800 million.
However, before his death, the bulk of the estate was transferred into discretionary trusts. Today, this would be treated as a Chargeable Lifetime Transfer and attract an immediate inheritance tax liability of 20% or £200 million but as the transfer was pre-March 1986, it was not subject to the lifetime tax charge.
^
The UK has some of the most generous tax legislation in the world and has enabled the aristocracy to keep their large fortunes intact and safe from repeated charges to inheritance tax.^

A trust constitutes a separate legal entity that has immortality and never forms part of an individual’s estate.

By choosing a series of discretionary trusts, the trustees have a whole list of family members who form potential beneficiaries which the trustees can choose to appoint benefits to.

This clever wording means HMRC cannot point a finger to any potential beneficiary like the young Duke and say that the £9.9 billion belongs to him or his late father.

The billions appreciate in the trust and cascade down to successive generations protected from inheritance tax.

The trust assets are managed by independent trustees who have a legal interest but not a beneficial interest in the trust assets.

This allows the trustees to manage the trust assets within the trust in accordance with the powers awarded under statutes and the trust instruments.

wordler · 07/06/2024 16:06

Well to be fair to the OP the DoW is ‘royal adjacent’ and the IHT system does need a huge overhaul - at the lower end particularly where the threshold should rise significantly considering the current price of housing. Plus it wouldn’t hurt to revisit all the potential tax loops available to make sure they are all fit for purpose.

But if the issue is rich people shouldn’t take advantage of tax law to get the best deal for themselves because it’s, what unethical? Then shall we also discuss the royal adjacent couple across the Pond and their decision to take advantage of US tax law by setting up their companies in the state of Delaware?

Is the thread basically - should rich people (who are vaguely connected to the UK head of state) be allowed to use current tax laws to get the best deal for themselves?

AliceOlive · 07/06/2024 16:08

Gall10 · 07/06/2024 15:10

Crumbs for the poor! Ridiculous! Giving 10 million from his vast wealth is like me giving a couple of quid to a charity collector.

So he shouldn’t bother? Can you even fathom how far £10M goes?

AfterDinnerIDrinkASoda · 07/06/2024 16:14

His father sent him to state school rather than private school to try to make him understand his privilege and learn something outside the aristocratic bubble.
He went to Mostyn House and Ellesmere College, both private schools

wordler · 07/06/2024 16:20

AfterDinnerIDrinkASoda · 07/06/2024 16:14

His father sent him to state school rather than private school to try to make him understand his privilege and learn something outside the aristocratic bubble.
He went to Mostyn House and Ellesmere College, both private schools

Ah - just state primary school then - disappointing.

Although Newcastle University rather than Oxbridge might have widened his perspective a little.

Looks like his father did want him to take his land stewardship responsibilities seriously - interested to see how that works out.

Speaking about his son in 1993, Gerald Grosvenor said: “He’s been born with the longest silver spoon anyone can have, but he can’t go through life sucking on it. He has to put back what he has been given.”

crumblingschools · 07/06/2024 16:33

Have you posted in the wrong section @TallerSally?

If you had a family business would you want it sold on your death to pay tax on estate or would you rather it carried on in the family?

MrsJackThornton · 07/06/2024 16:55

TallerSally · 07/06/2024 14:25

... and yours sounds even more naive in the absence of a breakdown of where Hugh's £10bn comes from.

You and a few others are assuming most of the value comes from farming land.

Last I checked, assets and land in Mayfair and Westminster were a sizeable part of Hughie's £10bn fortune.

Again, nice try attempting to justify the status quo. It isn't working.

But he will still pay inheritance tax, 6% every 10 years.

You were naive to think he wasn't paying any

In fact if he manages to increase the value of his trust over time then he will actually end up paying more IHT than if he paid it all now

So how isn't it working?

MrsJackThornton · 07/06/2024 16:56

LaMarschallin · 07/06/2024 15:30

I think the fact that this was started in the Royal Family section shows it's really not about a non-royal person's family trust etc

Absolutely!

ShamedBySiri · 07/06/2024 17:00

The bride looked absolutely beautiful, I could see a touch of Audrey Hepburn about her.
I love her dress and the floral display around the entrance was gorgeous.

I love a good wedding.

TallerSally · 07/06/2024 17:11

crumblingschools · 07/06/2024 16:33

Have you posted in the wrong section @TallerSally?

If you had a family business would you want it sold on your death to pay tax on estate or would you rather it carried on in the family?

wow, this really takes the prize of dumb questions!

let me help you with another: "after working hard 10-12 hours a day at your job, would you rather take 100% of your salary as take-home pay, or pay 40% income tax on it"

Tough question!

OP posts:
AliceOlive · 07/06/2024 17:12

In fairness, it’s a dumb thread.

MrsLeonFarrell · 07/06/2024 17:21

Since we are in the subject, I quite liked this quote from the previous Duke, in The Times today

When asked for advice by a young entrepreneur about how to make money, the Duke replied

"Make sure they have an ancestor who was a very close friend of William the Conqueror."

MrsJackThornton · 07/06/2024 17:29

TallerSally · 07/06/2024 17:11

wow, this really takes the prize of dumb questions!

let me help you with another: "after working hard 10-12 hours a day at your job, would you rather take 100% of your salary as take-home pay, or pay 40% income tax on it"

Tough question!

let me help you with another: "after working hard 10-12 hours a day at your job, would you rather take 100% of your salary as take-home pay, or pay 40% income tax on it"

That's not comparable. A more accurate comparison would be: "would you like to pay all your income tax for your entire life in one lump sum or in regular payments"

In this case the IHT is being paid in regular payments rather than one lump sum

spanieleyes · 07/06/2024 17:31

I feel a little sorry for the Duke. He was probably expecting to have a posh society wedding with a full page spread in Hello magazine ( or whatever the upper class equivalent is) when all of a sudden he gets dragged into the middle of a fight between supporters of the two princes, all hell lets loose and he is front page news and has threads on Mumsnet!

Fluffypuppy1 · 07/06/2024 17:32

TallerSally · 07/06/2024 17:11

wow, this really takes the prize of dumb questions!

let me help you with another: "after working hard 10-12 hours a day at your job, would you rather take 100% of your salary as take-home pay, or pay 40% income tax on it"

Tough question!

🤦‍♀️ it’s already been explained to you several times that any income from a trust is taxed at usual UK levels.

MrsJackThornton · 07/06/2024 17:35

Fluffypuppy1 · 07/06/2024 17:32

🤦‍♀️ it’s already been explained to you several times that any income from a trust is taxed at usual UK levels.

The OP is ignoring anything that disproves her factually incorrect OP in favor of berating posters instead 🤦‍♀️

smilesy · 07/06/2024 17:37

MrsJackThornton · 07/06/2024 17:35

The OP is ignoring anything that disproves her factually incorrect OP in favor of berating posters instead 🤦‍♀️

The OP is ignoring anything that puts the Duke of Westminster in a good light because he invited William to his wedding 😆

BlueParrotRedParrot · 07/06/2024 17:38

smilesy · 07/06/2024 17:37

The OP is ignoring anything that puts the Duke of Westminster in a good light because he invited William to his wedding 😆

Quite. Hugh G would be Man Of The Year if Harry had been his usher.