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The royal family

Abolishing the Monarchy

410 replies

tigger2022 · 19/06/2023 14:42

A few people on different sides of the debate have expressed an interest in discussing/debating this, so I thought we could give it a go…

Abolishing the monarchy?

My personal view: I used to be a staunch republican but have since completely changed my view. I think the constitutional monarchy is a slightly odd system, but seems to do the job, and I can’t think of another country’s system which is actually preferable. I also find myself less & less convinced by republican arguments…

Thoughts?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Nat6999 · 19/06/2023 17:48

I would love to know if there was a referendum on the monarchy today how the country would vote.

Gracewithoutend · 19/06/2023 17:50

anonymous98 · 19/06/2023 17:43

Not a republican nor a huge royalist. I think since the Queen has died, Charles, William etc. will need to demonstrate their willingness to adapt and maybe shrink the monarchy.

I love the traditions and history but do feel uncomfortable about how much the Coronation cost the public.

Hiw much more xan ge shrink it? His two uncles are in their 80s. Sadly, they're not going to be around much longer. He has a sister in her 70s and a brother in his 60s. None of their children are working royals.
And he has a son and his wife. How much smaller do you think he can go?

ditalini · 19/06/2023 17:51

Gracewithoutend · 19/06/2023 17:46

The Irish system has been mentioned before. It doesn't appear to be cheaper and sometimes people stand unopposed so they don't have an election. So it doesn't seem consistently democratic. Plus the people that do stand are,appointed by the political parties so it's controlled by politicians.
So what advantages do you think it offers?

Well, a little boy not having his life set out for him whether he likes it or not is a plus in my book.

Or the clear toll on the mental health of "spares".

Or just the insanity of having a head of state because of some dodgy old bloodline.

I'm not that fussed about cash savings.

Barbadossunset · 19/06/2023 17:53

If the monarchy was abolished what would happen to all the treasures, palaces, wealth etc.?
For the public.

Roussette not all the RF’s houses and possessions are owned by the state - some belong to them. Would you confiscate them or let them keep their own things?

Hobbi · 19/06/2023 17:56

SarahShorty · 19/06/2023 15:05

Republics are politically unstable. I prefer a monarchy.

How many different families have occupied the throne in last 250 years? Doesn't seem very stable to me.

Barbadossunset · 19/06/2023 17:56

Nat6999 · Today 17:48
I would love to know if there was a referendum on the monarchy today how the country would vote.

Yes. I was led to believe that the republican movement was holding fire while the Queen was alive but as soon as she died they would go into action as, according to them, the vast majority of the country wanted the monarchy abolished.
I’m not sure when they are going to abolish them.

tommyshelbysbunnit · 19/06/2023 17:57

I would like to see an honest breakdown of costs

keyboardkat · 19/06/2023 17:58

Gracewithoutend · 19/06/2023 17:46

The Irish system has been mentioned before. It doesn't appear to be cheaper and sometimes people stand unopposed so they don't have an election. So it doesn't seem consistently democratic. Plus the people that do stand are,appointed by the political parties so it's controlled by politicians.
So what advantages do you think it offers?

It doesn't matter whether a President is selected unapposed, or that s/he is nominated by a mix of local and national politicians because the Irish President has NO power and is muzzled throughout his or her tenure regarding commentary on the policies of the Government of the day.

I was reading yesterday that the Irish President made some statement on Irish neutrality and NATO. There were calls for him to be booted out as he had over stepped the mark of his presidential role. I doubt he will be, but just shows that the electorate and commentators are watching for any political involvement by the HoS there.

Barbadossunset · 19/06/2023 17:59

Gracewithoutend · Today 16:31
I'm interested to know, if we got rid of the RF, and people don't want more politicians, ie, Blair, Johnson, Truss, etc, who would people see in their place?

President David Beckham? President Philip Schofield? President Cherie Blair? President Anne Widdicombe? President Billy Bragg?

SarahShorty · 19/06/2023 18:08

Hobbi · 19/06/2023 17:56

How many different families have occupied the throne in last 250 years? Doesn't seem very stable to me.

The throne is inherited.

Gracewithoutend · 19/06/2023 18:37

@keyboardkat
HoS as President would be the guardian of the constitution. New laws are subject to the President's seal. Any issues of note or controversy to be referred to a Council of State where representatives of legal, professional, medical, academic and others decide whether the proposed law passes scrutiny, and if there are doubts, refer to the Supreme Court. Thus the President is neutral politically.

So the president would be in complete control. No law gets passed unless they agree with it?

Who decides if a law is controversial or of note? How do they decide? Are we run by the president, the unelected Council and faceless, unelected judges? I thought the complaint was that we needed to be more democratic? But with all these people scrutinising, what's the point of elected politicians? How can they be elected on a mandate if ultimately a group of lawyers get to decide if their mandate is OK to be carried out? Who knows what their politics are?

I am not worried about the money spent on a President.

It's interesting that you think it will be cheaper that a monarchy. The Sovereign grant us £52m pa. It goes to pay for the upkeep of Royal buildings - which are owned by the state and don't belong to the monarch per se - for entertaining heads of states and dignitaries, so state banquets, entertainments etc, for celebrating citizens of the uk and commonwealth countries with garden parties etc. All those things would still need to be paid for, regardless of who is head of state.

The French presidency costs over €100m pa. Quite a bit more expensive.

Plus, a national election costs just over £100m. For a 5 year term, a president costs £20m before they even start work. And then they have to learn all the ropes,and make international contacts. They'll just be getting au fait with that and they'll be gone.

Anyone can see that it would be minor compared to that spent on the RF for weddings, funerals, opening of Parliament, Trooping the colour, King's birthday and so on

France is a Republic, so is Russia, China, etc. They all still have annual state occasions that require pageantry of some sort. All countries desire a national identity and annual state occasions play into that. When presidents die, they have state funerals. In the US their state funerals cost more than those in the UK. And they go through presidents quicker than we go through monarchs. In the UK the broadcasting rights to the queen's funeral and the coronarion were sold to recoup costs. And there was a boom on the economy.

The RF would still exist and they can still do their thing, but at their own expense!

The RF don't take a wage. The sovereign grant only covers travel expenses. A president would need travel expenses and a wage.

The Presidency of Ireland (Republic of), is one I like the look of. Yes there are some former politicians who have been elected, but as I said, the Irish Presidency is neutral, has no political power, and is a figurehead only. Unlike Macron and Biden for example.

All the presidents have been involved in politics. None were without political affiliation.
Plus, political parties put forward the presidential candidates. No independent or non political person can run. It's completely controlled by politicians - often with back rom negotiations. Some years candidates stand unopposed so there isn't even an election. If you're just going to have someone appointed, why not just have a king? How is it different?

I think the president of Ireland has actually has been criticised for behaving politically. I'm not disputing the cause of that, or criticising the president, because I can't remember the details. But it's hard for political people not to be political.

Hobbi · 19/06/2023 18:38

@SarahShorty

'The throne is inherited.'

I think you need a history lesson.

Gracewithoutend · 19/06/2023 18:45

ditalini · 19/06/2023 17:51

Well, a little boy not having his life set out for him whether he likes it or not is a plus in my book.

Or the clear toll on the mental health of "spares".

Or just the insanity of having a head of state because of some dodgy old bloodline.

I'm not that fussed about cash savings.

So when people complain about cost, that is not a factor for you. I think that's a reasonable position to take.

So let's remove the monarchy as HoS. You like the Irish system where past politicians are nominated by present politicians, sometimes with back room deals. So Starmer and Sunak giving you a choice between who to elect with no other choice?

That sometimes people stand unopposed so there is no democratic input?

Is that the democratic system of election you're suggesting?

SarahShorty · 19/06/2023 18:49

Hobbi · 19/06/2023 18:38

@SarahShorty

'The throne is inherited.'

I think you need a history lesson.

Think I'll pass.

Hobbi · 19/06/2023 18:51

@SarahShorty

'Think I'll pass.'

Evidently.

tigger2022 · 19/06/2023 18:52

Not to mention, a lot of republics seem to enable extremes. The worst we’ve had by a mile is Johnson, basically a glorified libertarian edgelord. An actual far-right racist almost became president of France. Something I really like about a constitutional monarchy that doesn’t seem to be replicated is the fact that someone can humble the head of government. They have to bow/curtsey to them.

OP posts:
CharlotteStreetW1 · 19/06/2023 18:54

Ineedwinenow · 19/06/2023 15:19

I’d rather have a monarchy than a president! Look at the cock up the prime minster and his band of merry men have done, can you imagine what it would be like with one of those as President! I’d rather shit in my hands and clap that vote in a president…

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Also I like looking at the frocks.

Gracewithoutend · 19/06/2023 18:55

Hobbi · 19/06/2023 17:56

How many different families have occupied the throne in last 250 years? Doesn't seem very stable to me.

One family. The surname changed because Victoria married and a German name during WWI didn't look good. But Charles is a direct descendant of George I. Actually, he's a direct descendant of William I, too. But more circuitous. Although, they say about 25% of English people are descended from William I so that's not too special. Lol.

keyboardkat · 19/06/2023 19:02

So the president would be in complete control. No law gets passed unless they agree with it?

Technically that is what the Monarch's role is, to rubber stamp legislation for enactment. "Royal Assent is the final stage of a bill. Once both Houses agree on it, or just the Commons if the Parliament Act has been used, it then goes to the monarch, who will then officially agree to make the bill an act of parliament."

Is the monarch a guardian of the Constitution or not? Seems to me it would a step in the right direction to have scrutiny of a Bill (outside Committees) at Assent stage, otherwise there is no coming back.

It's interesting that you think it will be cheaper that a monarchy.
The French presidency costs over €100m pa. Quite a bit more expensive.

The French and US presidents are political roles with power. The Irish Presidency for example is not. There is a huge difference.

France is a Republic, so is Russia, China, etc. They all still have annual state occasions that require pageantry of some sort.

See above. Their Presidents/HOS are political with power. The Irish presidency appears to be much more low key, and the PM there does most of the big gigs. State visits are hosted by the President.

All the presidents have been involved in politics. None were without political affiliation.

Not all. One was the Chief Justice, one was Reid Professor of Law at Queen's university, one was European Commissioner for Social Affairs. The rest did have political connections for sure. Anyone over the age of 35 can be nominated for President, whether they are political or not, but political life does feature! But they have NO POWER as President. That is the unique feature that seems to get lost in the wash.

Gracewithoutend · 19/06/2023 19:03

keyboardkat · 19/06/2023 17:58

It doesn't matter whether a President is selected unapposed, or that s/he is nominated by a mix of local and national politicians because the Irish President has NO power and is muzzled throughout his or her tenure regarding commentary on the policies of the Government of the day.

I was reading yesterday that the Irish President made some statement on Irish neutrality and NATO. There were calls for him to be booted out as he had over stepped the mark of his presidential role. I doubt he will be, but just shows that the electorate and commentators are watching for any political involvement by the HoS there.

But do people want just more politicians? Won't people think it's more of the same? If they can't do anything, and if no unpolitucal person can ever stand, if they can just be appointed rather than elected, then how is that so different from a powerless, unpolitical, appointed king? Except s/he has no allegiance to any politician - unlike Irish presidents.

If people aren't bothered if a presidency costs more, and they're not worried that it's controlled by politicians, and it doesn't matter that they have political allegiances, and it's not a problem if they sometimes get appointed rather yhan elected and if it's OK that sometimes the electorate don't even get to vote, how is it substantially better than a monarchy?

Gracewithoutend · 19/06/2023 19:04

Barbadossunset · 19/06/2023 17:59

Gracewithoutend · Today 16:31
I'm interested to know, if we got rid of the RF, and people don't want more politicians, ie, Blair, Johnson, Truss, etc, who would people see in their place?

President David Beckham? President Philip Schofield? President Cherie Blair? President Anne Widdicombe? President Billy Bragg?

...President Ant and Dec.

Hobbi · 19/06/2023 19:06

@Gracewithoutend

He's probably equally descended from Ghengis Khan. It's obviously not one family, there's no Lord of the Rings hereditary shenanigans going on. It's been contrived over centuries to find tenuous connections to Protestants who weren't too much of a gibberish idiot.

pilates · 19/06/2023 19:39

Monarchy for me. I love the pomp and pageantry. It makes me feel proud when I watch it on tv.

Gracewithoutend · 19/06/2023 20:29

keyboardkat · 19/06/2023 19:02

So the president would be in complete control. No law gets passed unless they agree with it?

Technically that is what the Monarch's role is, to rubber stamp legislation for enactment. "Royal Assent is the final stage of a bill. Once both Houses agree on it, or just the Commons if the Parliament Act has been used, it then goes to the monarch, who will then officially agree to make the bill an act of parliament."

Is the monarch a guardian of the Constitution or not? Seems to me it would a step in the right direction to have scrutiny of a Bill (outside Committees) at Assent stage, otherwise there is no coming back.

It's interesting that you think it will be cheaper that a monarchy.
The French presidency costs over €100m pa. Quite a bit more expensive.

The French and US presidents are political roles with power. The Irish Presidency for example is not. There is a huge difference.

France is a Republic, so is Russia, China, etc. They all still have annual state occasions that require pageantry of some sort.

See above. Their Presidents/HOS are political with power. The Irish presidency appears to be much more low key, and the PM there does most of the big gigs. State visits are hosted by the President.

All the presidents have been involved in politics. None were without political affiliation.

Not all. One was the Chief Justice, one was Reid Professor of Law at Queen's university, one was European Commissioner for Social Affairs. The rest did have political connections for sure. Anyone over the age of 35 can be nominated for President, whether they are political or not, but political life does feature! But they have NO POWER as President. That is the unique feature that seems to get lost in the wash.

This format is getting complicated now. 😄

So the president would be in complete control. No law gets passed unless they agree with it?

Technically that is what the Monarch's role is, to rubber stamp legislation for enactment. Is the monarch a guardian of the Constitution or not? Seems to me it would a step in the right direction to have scrutiny of a Bill (outside Committees) at Assent stage, otherwise there is no coming back.

That's what monarchs do now yes, rubber stamp. They do have powers to overrule but they maintain neutrality by not.

Just to point out here, that experts are consulted when writing new laws. Both during drafting and the comittee stages. It's not just MPs googling. (Joke. Maybe one day! But not yet.) But politicians elected by and accountable to the electorate actually carry out the mandate they were elected on.

You want to add on a number of unaccountable people into the system of passing laws. Because if the unelected body of "experts" don't like a law, they can pass it to the unelected body of lawyers to pass, amend or kick it out. You are, ineffect allowing a small group of unelected officials to decide govt policy. How do I get as say on that? The judges positions,will become very powerful. What control is there over stopping a politically minded cabal forming in favour of one party rvthe other?

It's interesting that you think it will be cheaper that a monarchy.
The French presidency costs over €100m pa. Quite a bit more expensive.

The French and US presidents are political roles with power. The Irish Presidency for example is not. There is a huge difference. Their Presidents/HOS are political with power. The Irish presidency appears to be much more low key, and the PM there does most of the big gigs. State visits are hosted by the President.

I'm not sure I understand the argument. Both the monarch and the president are HoSs, albeit they have different types of duties. Are you saying that because one is political they should cost more? Why is that? The UK already has political representation through the PM. The French, for example, have theirs through the president, who has a pm. So the presidents political costs are already shared within that tier of government, who tend to concentrate on national policy.

In Ireland the president costs €4.8m / £4.1m. The population is 5m. So it costs 82p per person.

In the UK, the sovereign grant is £52m. The population is 67m. So 77p per person.

The UK monarchy is cheaper but on top of that, the cost for the Irish president is purely for the running his office. Paying his and his staffs wages and expenses. It doesn't, as the cost of the UK monarch does, include buildings maintainance and upkeep, entertaining dignitaries, social events for a host of well-doers on top of running his office.

Gracewithoutend · 19/06/2023 20:33

Hobbi · 19/06/2023 19:06

@Gracewithoutend

He's probably equally descended from Ghengis Khan. It's obviously not one family, there's no Lord of the Rings hereditary shenanigans going on. It's been contrived over centuries to find tenuous connections to Protestants who weren't too much of a gibberish idiot.

How is it not one family? Each monarch up til George I, 300 years ago, (poster I replied to actually defined 250 years so I'm throwing in an extra 50!) has been the child or grandchild of a preceding monarch. Do you not count your grandparents and grandchildren as family?

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