Abolishing the Monarchy

[tigger2022]

A few people on different sides of the debate have expressed an interest in discussing/debating this, so I thought we could give it a go…

Abolishing the monarchy?

My personal view: I used to be a staunch republican but have since completely changed my view. I think the constitutional monarchy is a slightly odd system, but seems to do the job, and I can’t think of another country’s system which is actually preferable. I also find myself less & less convinced by republican arguments…

Thoughts?

I'd say to bring back hereditary peers. Current HoL is a daycare for the elderly imo.

I think our HoL is actually a very interesting place. It's full of very knowledgeable people in specific subjects so if you listen to their debates, they're talk with facts rather than rhetoric. *And because they're not elected, they don't have to adjust their views to please the electorate.
If we go to an all elected membership, it will just be more politicians of the same parties. At present there are nearly 200 crossbench members, which just wouldn't happen in a political house.
Labour have said they're going to reform the HoL when they get elected but it runs the risk of just being just more braying politicians, mirroring the the HoC. I think it will be sad to lose the specialist knowledge it has
I agree with this, but also agree with the PP about removing the cronyism.

A look through Boris' nominations shows a lot of people who are nominated for their loyalty to him, not their experience or expertise in areas that would enrich the chamber and improve legislation.

I think HoL should be an appointed chamber of experts who are judged, by impartial committee, to have contributed an outstanding contribution to their field.

Really? So you don't believe in democracy then? Because whether or not a country is a republic has absolutely nothing to do with whether it has an anachronistic hereditory family in funny clothes and hats. And if the UK is an example of political stability then that certainly isn't all it's cracked up to be either.

I started off republican. I'm moving rapidly to revolutionary.

yes agree with you Lola.

Yep, really. Look at France on their 6th Republic. Don't even get me started on America's situation.

France isn't unstable. Nor is the USA, Finland, Germany or the Czech Republic to name a few.
That's an invalid argument

I have a plan, and have described it to my children too, so if they ever spot this 'Hello Kids'
My plan:
Abolish the monarchy after Charles dies
This will release Prince George and his siblings into the wild and they can have a semi normal adulthood.

Now for the genius bit:

To prevent a president like Boris The Buffon or that fucker Farage, or any other self serving politician of any hue taking control, every single adult who has the right to vote is entered into a lottery, and then 5 men and 5 women are drawn at random and they are forced by law to stand for president, and will then be elected by the public. Maybe a TV show called 'Britains Going Republic?'

So one male and one female President, who are in office for say 2 or 3 years at time, and obviously all expenses would be paid, fancy gaff to live in, decent clothes allowance etc.

Anyone else think this plan has legs? It's about as ridiculous as our current set up...

I do think there is a value to having people involved in politics (and I use that term quite loosely since the RF aren’t involved in party politics or policy!) involved in public life that are not beholden to an electorate and have the ability to think further than the next election. The problem with the HoL I’d say is that it has swung too far the other way and become beholden to party politics. If there was a way of having genuine business/faith/community leaders in there, like people both PM & opposition leader could agree on (which when you think about it would be a surprising number of people). I think ex-PMs should get automatic peerages but shouldn’t be able to nominate their own MPs - I know that means also Boris & Truss, but the benefits outweigh the positives of having the experience of most ex-PMs, and not 1000 cranky backbenchers who only get peerages for political expediency.

I agree, OP, that on paper it sounds ridiculous, and if you were starting to create a constitution you wouldn't come up with this - but, yes, it works.

I know all the arguments about it being elitist - but I don't agree with them. I don't think it impacts our democracy in any negative way in reality. I'm a pragmatist, not a person of principle, so my attitude is always - if it isn't broken, don't mend it. I like the continuity which monarchy gives and I love all the attendant fuss and pageantry. Why would we give up on something we do so well? The cost is offset in all kinds of ways, and frankly, wouldn't be much decreased if we had a president. The US Presidential inauguration costs about 80+ million (and that's not including all the election expenses every 7 years, which must be astronomical). So I don't think cutting costs is much of an argument for abolition.

I like the way royal events have been the backdrop to my own life - I remember watching them with my grandparents, then my parents and finally with my children. It might not matter to many posters here, but the fact that the monarch goes on when governments etc are transient is important and reassuring to me.

I used to think I was a republican in my youth - but I've come to see the point of it all now I'm older. Yes, they don't need all those houses, but apart from that, it works well. A Scandinavian set-up would be fine by me.

I would definitely vote to abolish. Though I say that with a heavy heart. They are embarrassing.

I think a Constitutional Monarchy is genius - separating the power from the wealth.

Germany's president (who knew they even had one) costs more to run than our Royal family, so don't think a Republic makes it a cheaper option.

Over half the world's population watched the Queen's funeral. Little old us on our little old island watched by half the planet - never underestimate the soft power and reach of our Monarchy.

Sky News interviewed people from all round the world at Saturday's Trooping the Colour- including a middle aged Frenchman, practically in tears because he'd just seen The King, for real. Why would a french man travel to the UK to see our King?? - they really are quite the draw, aren't they?

We'd be nuts to get rid of our monarchy.

.

I also don’t just think the cost is comparable to other countries, it’s a good thing. France and Germany are right to spend loads on the ceremony of government. I don’t want governing done on the cheap! I feel the same way about other areas that people often moan about - the dreaded NHS managers and diversity officers! Who doesn’t want the NHS managed and diverse at the end of the day? Or even government officials using a state jet - if the minister of another country is coming to visit you to ask you to spend your money in exchange for them spending theirs - a country that sends its envoy on a nice specially chartered flight will be believable, not the penny-pinching one that sends them in the back seat of an Easyjet. The pomp and circumstance is so good for our country, even just in terms of what it tells the world about us.

Can I ask,
Would you have restrictions for who could stand for head of state?
What duties would you see a HoS performing if the present HoS does naff all?
How much do you think it would cost to have a HoS in comparison to a monarch?
Is there any other country's HoS system we should follow?

People are interested in Elizabeth I and Victoria and neither of them did much constitutionally. I'd conjecture that people aren't that interested in the change from Catholicism to Protestantism, they're interested that he had six wives.

No thanks I prefer to keep the Monarchy.
I really like the historical continuity.

Are there any Irish MNs who could comment on Michael Higgins or Mary McAleese?

They seem(ed) to manage to be successful figurehead Presidents.

The Irish setup makes sense to me in a post-monarchy state.

No restrictions on who could stand. Just be nominated by a minimum number of representatives of the population. Haven't worked out who they would be yet!

HoS as President would be the guardian of the constitution. New laws are subject to the President's seal. Any issues of note or controversy to be referred to a Council of State where representatives of legal, professional, medical, academic and others decide whether the proposed law passes scrutiny, and if there are doubts, refer to the Supreme Court. Thus the President is neutral politically.

I am not worried about the money spent on a President. Anyone can see that it would be minor compared to that spent on the RF for weddings, funerals, opening of Parliament, Trooping the colour, King's birthday and so on. The RF would still exist and they can still do their thing, but at their own expense! A State residence would be necessary for any President, and of course there would be the usual security and other expenses attached to State occasions and the running of the office of President.

The Presidency of Ireland (Republic of), is one I like the look of. Yes there are some former politicians who have been elected, but as I said, the Irish Presidency is neutral, has no political power, and is a figurehead only. Unlike Macron and Biden for example.

But we do live in a democracy. You democratically choose everyone who has a say over decisions in your life. Parish councillors, borough councillors, county councillors, mayor's, devolved MPs, national MPs. We have so many elected officials. You have freedom of speech to criticise any of them, including the monarch.

You can campaign freely for any political party, start your own political party or just become an elected person not attached to any party. You can campaign against the monarch. You can even start a campaign that you should be the new monarch!

How are you not living in a democratic state? I sometimes wonder if people have any idea of what living in a non-democratic country is like.

Not a republican nor a huge royalist. I think since the Queen has died, Charles, William etc. will need to demonstrate their willingness to adapt and maybe shrink the monarchy.

I love the traditions and history but do feel uncomfortable about how much the Coronation cost the public.

If the monarchy was abolished what would happen to all the treasures, palaces, wealth etc.?

The US Presidential inauguration costs about 80+ million (and that's not including all the election expenses every 7 years, which must be astronomical). So I don't think cutting costs is much of an argument for abolition

If you look at the GDP of the US compared to us in UK that argument on figures really does not hold water.
We would not be spending that.

I genuinely think we in U.K. have best system of governance in the world. I live out constitutional monarch and our House of Commons/ lords.
if we need a head of state ( which we do) then why not from one family that trains up its members from birth and is apolitical and has a bit of pageantry and funny hats. Why not?
someone has to do it and they will have a family and kids etc so still plenty of opportunity for drama / press.
I can’t think of a country that has a better system and the longevity ours does. France keeps changing their republic and they allowed the Nazi’s to decide their government in Vichy France in 1945 ( or whenever). That can’t happen with a monarchy as you can’t have another country just installing a new head of state. You either are the rightful monarch or you aren’t!

For the public.

France beats us on tourism by a mile

The Irish system has been mentioned before. It doesn't appear to be cheaper and sometimes people stand unopposed so they don't have an election. So it doesn't seem consistently democratic. Plus the people that do stand are,appointed by the political parties so it's controlled by politicians.
So what advantages do you think it offers?