Abolishing the Monarchy

[tigger2022]

A few people on different sides of the debate have expressed an interest in discussing/debating this, so I thought we could give it a go…

Abolishing the monarchy?

My personal view: I used to be a staunch republican but have since completely changed my view. I think the constitutional monarchy is a slightly odd system, but seems to do the job, and I can’t think of another country’s system which is actually preferable. I also find myself less & less convinced by republican arguments…

Thoughts?

Why would security costs be an argument against the monarchy? Arguably we don’t spend enough money on protecting people in power - 2 MPs murdered since 2016. The senior working royals have protection because there are people who want to harm them. Anyone in a position of power becomes a target. France, US, etc all spend loads on protecting their leaders.

I’m not convinced by the whole money argument in general. Everything comes down to… why only the monarchy?

We spent money on the funeral and coronation: we also spent public money (including on security) on hosting the Olympics, the Euros, Eurovision, the rugby World Cup, the Ashes, the cricket world cup, there’s the annual New Years’ blow-out, we’ve spent public money celebrating Pride, carnival, Christmas, Diwali. The idea of spending money on things which are fun, celebrate our heritage, and boost our standing in the world is not crazy or unique to a monarchy. Inaugurations in G7 countries don’t come cheap.

We spend money on preserving historical palaces, yep. We also spend public money on preserving our national parks, national trust properties, historical waterways, even our ‘henges’ whatever they are. There are stately homes which are privately owned, as the palaces would be if we sold them, and their owners no longer have the kind of wealth required to maintain them and so they fall into disrepair.

I suppose it comes down to what kind of country we want to live in. We could live on the cheap - we could move our government from prime London properties onto a concrete industrial estate, we could spend no money on anything fun or just nice, we spend no money on protecting people when lives are at risk, we could withdraw from the world stage and become neutral on things like Ukraine and human rights abuses in the Middle East and China, which would really take the target off the backs of our leaders & mean we can have them for pennies. I just don’t want to live in a cheap country at the end of the day. We’re in one of the wealthiest nations on earth, we should use the voice we have on the world stage even if it means our leaders need us to protect them from harm, we should have big events like coronations or inaugurations that show us off and project our soft power, we should invest in the arts and heritage not go urrrghhhh the upkeep on these palaces is a lot, let’s convert them all into flags and flog them to some oligarchs…

I don’t really think that’s anything to do with having a monarchy or not though. We could in theory move the royal family onto a newbuild housing estate of affordable homes, but that wouldn’t make our country look great.

*convert them into flats that should say!

Why on earth do you say 'envy'. ?

Inequality is a better word

Rousette would you also like to see rich landowners like the Duke of Westminster and Lord Cadogan abolished? Or at least have their land confiscated?

👏 excellent post @tigger2022!

Why would security costs be an argument against the monarchy? Arguably we don’t spend enough money on protecting people in power - 2 MPs murdered since 2016. The senior working royals have protection because there are people who want to harm them. Anyone in a position of power becomes a target. France, US, etc all spend loads on protecting their leaders.

In addition to the protection of politicians we also have to pay for the monarch and their entire family, more so at events. So its additional to what you would be paying just for your President, currently PM.

It is hard to discuss this though because theres a lot of unknowns, would we have much of a reduced cost without them- how do we figure it out? So while I get where you are coming from, I think implying objecting to the extravagance I do think is undeniable with a monarchy, means you want to have no nice things and 'live on the cheap' as a nation. I think we can find a fairer and more democratic system, one which spends less on big events and on a head of state and more on all of its citizens, but without needing to go in completely the opposite direction. Theres a lot more in the middle of those two extremes.

What does 'abolished' mean in your post?
No idea
Their titles abolished? A plan to reform the HoL is a start

What does 'abolished' mean in your post?

Titles abolished, land and possessions confiscated. How much land do you think one family should be allowed to own? How many valuable paintings?

The President alone doesn’t get protection - the first lady does too, often their children as well, the deputy president, the deputy’s spouse, it’s never just the president and nobody else.

Well said. It's so black and white on these threads about the Monarchy. Abolish them all and become a 'cheap' country?
There is middle ground on everything and if ever steps were taken to change, it will take decades yet some posters want definitive answers from MNers now!

Constitutional experts, historians, lawyers, would need to research and advise.
I just think a monarchy hinders the modernisation of society, it is outdated and archaic and the Monarch serves no political purpose

I read today the Queen was contacted and asked to veto the appointment of Lord Lebedev, one of Johnson's cronies, father in the KGB. The aides contacted Buckingham Palace in July 2020 to request that the monarch intervene, which she was constitutionally entitled to do, after Johnson decided to press ahead with the controversial peerage despite warnings from the intelligence agencies.

She declined. So there you have it. Lebedev was viewed as a potential national security risk, MI6, Holac, Security advisors all tried to stop this appointment. Last resort the Monarch. She declined
It does make you wonder what they are actually for.
Then there was the illegal prorogation of parliament, again agreed by the Queen.

I'm sorry I cannot answer such a question and I don't wish to be rude but it is not contributing, but rather detracting from the topic.

Brilliant post by Tigger my thoughts exactly.

There is absolutely no need for the swollen ranks of this family in this modern age. Why on earth should one family get all these priviledges and public money and tax concessions. TOtal madness.

Yeah, let's just swell the coffers of President Blair, President Cameron, President Johnson...!!!

I weep for the future of democracy if you can’t tell the difference between the prime minister and a ceremonial head of state.

I weep for the future of democracy if you can't see how the above-mentioned would probably be considered or consider themselves candidates for a potential presidency?

Are you normally so obtuse??!!

We would only have to deal with an unpopular president for the length of their term.

I love it when people argue for democracy as if it's real and exists.

Sigh. Why, if it had no political power, a civil servant salary, and involved ribbon-cutting and opening community centres?

No requirement that the candidates need to be politicians, or former politicians, surely.

You would, of course need to figure this out once you’ve moved past the primitive monarchy stage of development.

So... the Royal Report is out. The RF spent more and their spending exceeded the SG and duchies income. Net expenditure was £107.5M, a 5% increase on last year
The total Sovereign Grant for 2022-23, amounted to £86.3 million, which is made up of a core grant of £51.8 million ($65.5 which funds official travel, property maintenance and the operating costs of The Sovereign’s household
(But of course these figures aren't the true cost which is far far more if we knew about security)

https://news.sky.com/story/royal-familys-accounts-lift-the-lid-on-spending-but-do-not-tell-us-their-true-cost-12911387

Some more key figures

– £86.3 million – The total taxpayer-funded Sovereign Grant, made up of £51.8 million for the “core” funding and an extra £34.5 million for the reservicing of Buckingham Palace.
– £107.5 million – Official net expenditure by the monarchy, a rise of £5.1 million or 5% from £102.4 million in 2021/2022.
– £1.6 million – Amount spent from the Sovereign Grant on the late Queen’s funeral.
– £700,000 – Amount spent from the Sovereign Grant on the Platinum Jubilee (including £300,000 from 2022-23)
– 517 – Full-time equivalent staff paid for from the Sovereign Grant, including fixed term contracts, up from 491.
– £27.1 million – The wage bill for staff, up £3.4 million, or 14%, from £23.7 million the year before.
– £2.4 million – Cost of housekeeping and hospitality for the royal household, up £1.1 million from £1.3 million.
– £3.9 million – Cost of official royal travel, a drop of £0.6 million or about 13%, from £4.5 million the previous year.
– £1.02 million – Cost of 179 helicopter journeys made by members of the royal family.
– £186,571 – Cost of charter flights for the King and Queen to Rwanda for the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting.
– £146,219 – Charter flights for the King and Queen’s first official state visit, to Germany in March 2023.
– £25,687 – Cost of a residence-to-residence charter flight for the King, when he flew from Aberdeen to Northolt in October 2022.
– 9.7% – Proportion of staff from ethnic minority backgrounds working for Buckingham Palace, compared with 9.7% in 2021-22 and 8.5% in 2020-21. The target was 10% and is now 14%.
– 16.3% – Proportion of staff from ethnic minority backgrounds working for Kensington Palace. (13.6% last year)
– More than 2,700 – Official engagements by members of the royal family in the UK and overseas, compared with 2,300 last year.
– £5.9 million – Prince of Wales’s private income from the Duchy of Cornwall landed estate – for about six months he spent as a new heir to the throne in 2022-23.
– £6.9 million – Amount of money kept by the landed estate for day-to-day running, instead of going to William as salary.
– £12.8 million – Salary the King received as the Prince of Wales from the Duchy.
– £24 million – The total annual Duchy of Cornwall profit for 2022-23, which would ordinarily have been William’s full salary.

At first glance... I am gobsmacked at the wage bill... £27.1million

And let's keep a note of those helicopter journeys.. 179, and the charter flight costs for C&C for just one journey £186,571 and one charter flight from Aberdeen to Northolt £25,587

I am of course picking out the worst bits but we are on a thread called 'Abolishing the Monarchy' 🤣

I love how you did a whole breakdown and this is the bit I objected to 🤣🤣🤣
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/the_royal_family/4837861-royal-finances-published-for-last-year

@tigger2022

Not sure what you mean lol... do you want me to transfer my breakdown of figures onto your other thread? Happy to, if you like!
I just came onto this one as it was in my watched threads!

No I just thought it was funny you did a whole breakdown and my reaction was they think 19 degrees is cold

Ahhh got it! Yes they turned the thermostat down, didn't they! 😂🤣

(I wonder if C&C have the usual battle of one turning it down, one turning it up!)