Harry - what next?

[TrashyPanda]

Continuation thread for all things Harry, Meghan and all things Archewell.

welcome back everyone!

What do you mean by public complaints?

My (wholly personal) view was that Charles might have had a scheme in mind where you ditch the “grandchildren of the sovereign” titles altogether, and so the only people who get the titles of Prince/Princess are the children of the sovereign, and the children of the next in line.

That would mean that Charles, Anne, Andrew and Edward would all remain as they are currently, but of their children only William and Harry would be Princes. And of William and Harry’s children only George, Charlotte and Louis would be Prince/Princess. And then of them, only George’s future children would be eligible.

If that was what he was thinking, they missed the chance to tidy the situation up when QEII altered the letters patent before Georges birth. Of course, maybe she didn’t agree.

What's the point of titles of Prince aznd Princess for Archie and Lilibet when they live in the US, and do not take part in any RF activities?
Security is not decided by the RF, and is a separate issue.

@Serenster That would be in keeping with his thinking. Probably didn't dare follow through due to the outcry and accusations that would come from the Sussex camp.

Now don't forget that Charles was announced as King and William as Prince of Wales as soon as the queen died. It took 9 months of public complaints for Archie and Lili to be publicly acknowledged - which arouses suspicions from a lot of people

That's because, like all younger sons, the parents get to choose which version of available titles/styles they use. The Palace waited for H&M to make their wishes know, and conformed it officially (by updating website) within hours

Because it would have been wrong for the Palace to impose titles, and it wasn't clear what the couple would do. They had rejected the "birthright" titles of Lord/Lady (or Earl) at birth, so may well have wanted to continue that policy (especially as they were in US and had been v unhappy about their realities of being royal)

Now, according to Harry and Meghan, the palace were looking at the patents and wanted to change the rules for Harry's children, so that Archie and Lili once Charles comes to the throne, they would not have the titles

Yes, the sole source is Meghan on OW, citing Harry as her source. I don't think that's a sourcing chain we can rely on.

Though I do think all options for "slimming down" will have been considered at some point (including in 2012), but considering many options is normal in decision making. And doesn't mean you've got it in for an individual (especially as that option has never been selected)

Now don't forget that Charles was announced as King and William as Prince of Wales as soon as the queen died. It took 9 months of public complaints for Archie and Lili to be publicly acknowledged - which arouses suspicions from a lot of people.

Public complaints? What an odd interpretation.

Archie's parents introduced him on his birth as 'Master Archie Mountbatten-Windsor'. He remained styled in that way - and his sister similarly - until his parents indicated that they wanted their children styled as Prince/ss. Then the website was updated within about 24 hours.

The same website that lists Edward and Sophie's children as Viscount/Lady Louise, when they are entitled to use Prince/ss. Because the parents have chosen to use Viscount/Lady Louise. If Edward and Sophie change their mind - or Louise decides she wants to use Princess, now she is over 18 - then that would be changed on the website as well.

I think slimming down is very much Charles' view, while the Queen was much keener on following tradition. But that's just my take on it.

I think Charles had his views really formed by the media coverage in the 90s/00s about the cost of the royal family and the civil list and tax etc.

I think he hasn't really adjusted his views since and has potentially taken it too far. I don't the public want loads of "working" royals but there needs to be enough to maintain some public profile.

Off topic but I think he should have stayed more open to the idea of Beatrice and Eugenie having some roles

And yes, they could have changed it so the 'eldest living son' of the eldest son of the PoW became the 'eldest living child' instead of all the children being Prince/ss from birth.

But tbh it is hardly a common occurance, and I don't suppose anyone was thinking that Harry and his future - as yet not met - wife would feel their children's noses would be put out of joint by 'only' becoming a Prince/ss when QE2 died instead of at birth.

Let alone thinking that Harry's future wife might be a POC, so therefore let's stop them from being Prince/ss at birth, so that gives us an excuse to not give them security when they step down as working royals and move abroad...

I don't see it as odd at all.
SM was full of complaints almost on a daily basis about how Harry and Meghan were telling the truth, because here it is, him and his sister have still not received the titles. Phone ins and panel discussions on the matter. Dodgy little polls. I would say all that encompasses 'the public'. Unless, you were expecting some kind of vote or referendum?

H&M clearly stated that they were not asked about the children's titles, the palace simply announced them as Master etc.

I would have thought the palace would have gathered that they do want the children's titles, when they raised the issue on Oprah.

The whole thing does make me wonder if Edward did in fact refuse the titles, or he was told and it's now being repeated. He was not called The Duke of Edinburgh till the Sussexes said princess 9 months after the queen's death - btw, wasn't he supposed to be called that after his father's passing.

I also asked this question. What do you mean by public complaints? Are you suggesting that the palace listened to these and implemented based on radio, SM etc ? In other words the same kind of media chat that is dismissed as negativity in other posts on the H and M topics.

Am not saying it's the press they should be listening to, but the public. Obviously.

How do you hear about the public's views though - through the press, through polls, through Twitter and other SM. They are all as "tainted" as the other.

Perhaps that’s not what Beatrice and Eugenie want!

Of course that is possible - but I don't think they got the choice

I don't get your point.

If a person phones in, it's them talking (not the press). If a person speaks on a show like , I don't know Question time, it's them talking not the press and so on.

On SM you can easily tell who are the trolls or what looks like genuine people from their posting history. I'm not gonna read a tweet by, I don't know, Rishi Sunak and conclude that's the press, because it's on twitter?

Sorry, but I missed your point completely .

That's a shame. I mean media to cover all types of idea sharing. As I said though before - are you saying that you believe that the public made the Palace change its minds or was it just part of the legal process?

H&M clearly stated that they were not asked about the children's titles, the palace simply announced them as Master etc.

I find that impossible to believe, given that the announcement that Archie would be known as Master, because his parents wanted him to have a normal life, came from Omid Scobie, not the Palace.

When QE2 was alive they were listed as Master/Miss. That didn't change until the parents indicated - by referring to Lili as 'Princess' if I remember correctly - that they wanted the website changed. The website was then changed.

I would have thought the palace would have gathered that they do want the children's titles, when they raised the issue on Oprah.

I don't think it is up to the Palace to second guess what the parents wanted - and they would have massively over-stepped their role if they had decided on the basis of a media interview to change the way the website referred to the children. Once the parents referred to the children publically as Prince/ss it was changed wihtin a day or two.

I don't remember the issue coming up on programmes such as Question Time. I have no doubt there are corners of SM where it was a huge issue, but comparing the theories that the change was because some random people on some parts of SM were up in arms about it vs it was because the parents changed the way they referred publically to the children - well, never let common sense get in the way of a conspiracy theory, of course!

H&M clearly stated that they were not asked about the children's titles, the palace simply announced them as Master etc

Link?

I don't remember them saying that, and the Palace is v traditional, so would have announced them as the Earl of Dumbarton and Lady Lili Mountbatten-Windsor (as that was their birthright at the time of their birth)

The whole thing does make me wonder if Edward did in fact refuse the titles, or he was told and it's now being repeated.

This was all announced though when Edward and Sophie were married (see the atrachea press release). Alongside what their titles would be. Given we are also told that Wessex was Edward’s own choice, it seems he and Sophie were involved in this.

H&M clearly stated that they were not asked about the children's titles, the palace simply announced them as Master etc.

And yet the Palace has always referred to Edward and Sophie's children as Viscount/Lady Louise. So why wouldn't they have used the titles Earl/Lady Lili? When you put that together with Scobie's statement, I think it is more credible that Harry and Meghan chose initially to use Master/Miss. Then later Prince/ss, at which point the RF website was changed.

Obviously that doesn't fit with the narrative about the nasty, scheming Palace and poor, hard done by Harry and Meghan. If that's what you believe then there is no point discussing other possibilities.

@MarcelProust thankyou, for so brilliantly summing it up.

I feel relieved someone understands me.

Especially after being labelled a pigeon on a chess board.

Here’s Omid Scobie’s tweets I mentioned above announcing Archie’s name and lack of a title. So no, the Palace didn’t announce this without consulting his parents.