‘Courtiers’ 2

[RandomPenguinHouse]

The last thread filled up during a particularly chatty morning.

And yet Andrew, the "git", nor Charles, nor Margaret, nor anyone else faced formal complaints of bullying that were published at a very convenient time as a form of preemptive attack.

A google search will show you that there have been a number of employment tribunal cases against either Royal family members or, more commonly, their households over the years, so clearly people have been making complaints internally.

The process is that an employee (it does not have to be the victim, by the way) files a grievance internally, the grievance is considered and a decision reached. If the complainant is not satisfied with the outcome, only then can they take a case to the Tribunal. These matters only becomes public once it reaches Tribunal stage.

So in short, we have no way of knowing if there have been complaints against Charles or Andrew (or anyone else) that have been investigated and resolved without the need for an appeal to the Tribunal. I doubt very much Princess Margaret would be a useful comparison - she’s been dead for 20 years and was in ill health for much of the decade before that, and employment law has evolved considerably in that time.

And, before you say “Well why was the complaint against Meghan publicised when others are confidential”, in this case it’s because absolutely nothing was done when it was filed. The employees were therefore blowing the whistle that the Palace was not meeting its employment law obligations.

A more interesting question might be why the Palace did nothing when faced with the complaint against Meghan. We know they have a functioning HR process because other cases have been through it and then have been appealed to the Tribunal.

i think the problem is, Croque, that we don't know what was said to Meghan. Would she have listened? Didn't her "UK friends" flag issues with the media etc involved in dating a prince and she brushed it off?

"When I first met my now husband, my friends were really happy because I was so happy, but my British friends said to me, 'I'm sure he's great, but you shouldn't do it because the British tabloids will destroy your life.'" - Meghan talking to Tom Bradbury in South Africa.

This chimes with accounts given by Gina Nelthorpe-Cowne, one of Meghan’s former managers in the UK about how she’d tried to warn her about what she’d face, but was told that her negativity wasn’t welcomed (although she said this after the ITV interview, so could have been jumping on the bandwagon).

Did H not say during the engagement interview it was 18 months ? Much of it cross crossing The Atlantic . So not whirlwind but given the time they were physically together it was quite short .

How did MM know Eugenie ? Just wondering why she claimed not to know anything about H given how close H and E used to be ?

Soho House and Markus Anderson. All networking, as these people do. Meghan actually knew Andrew and Fergie - possibly before she was with Harry? Fergie was the person who taught her to curtsey!

Ah thanks . So was MM a frequent visitor to London ? I didn’t realise that . I got the impression her life was very much in the US ?

According to Tom Bowers there was some deliberate fudging of the time line because Meghan was still living with her boyfriend when she started dating Harry.

As I understand it (willing to be corrected) she was in the US, but wanted to branch out into the UK. She arrived in the summer of 2016 with various contacts. She was looking for various opportunities, both for career and personal life. She had the date with Harry at that point, so obviously things changed and other options were not pursued.

If it's true, as Low suggests, that Meghan said to a member of staff "Don't worry. If there was literally anyone else I could ask to do this, I would be asking them instead of you" then I'm not surprised the staff wanted to speak out. It's horrible and in most workplaces, would be seen as bullying. Combined with the allegation about a staff member being repeatedly screamed at on the phone by both Harry and Meghan and it sounds completely toxic

I think you are right. It was the time when she expressed a romantic interest in Ashley Cole on social media and became friendly with Piers Morgan

I think that’s absolutely correct, Maireas. I think she was looking to build a post-Suits career as an influencer/celebrity/activist and thought the UK was a good potential market (as Americans like Ashley Roberts and Kimberley Wyatt have done, it’s a perfectly sensible strategy). So she was meeting with journalists from the Sun, Piers Morgan, Lizzy Cundy, Millie MacIntosh etc to start building contacts and hopefully bookings. But obviously them she met Prince Harry and the picture changed fundamentally.

There was a red carpet interview with Lizzie Cindy in which she stated that she was interested in dating British guys. She ghosted both Piers and Cundy as soon as she had moved on with Harry which is well documented.

Cundy

There was definitely an expectations mismanagement on both sides which left her expecting special treatment and special concessions. When this never materialised to her satisfaction, it was replaced by a resentment which almost too deep seated to resolve.

I agree with this and also think this goes against the narrative that M was unwelcome and a "starter" wife. I think the palace and family were desperate to see H settled in a good marriage and bent over backwards to welcome Meghan. Allowances were made, allowances which raised those expectations which were obviously dashed when reality hit leading to the bitterness and recriminations we see today. For example an allowance such as telling Meghan that the marriage didn't have to interfere with her career and she could continue working in her industry, not necessarily acting but producing/writing etc but which was later spun to as them not wanting to "pay for her".

I remain convinced that this is fundamentally about money - cost of security etc and loss of status - no outriders and being hustled through the hoi polloi by burly, powerful armed police. Had the security bill continued to be picked up by KC I don't think we'd have heard a tenth of as much as we have from Montecito.

I can totally empathise with that. My Mum has mental health issues that causes delusions and she is also very C of E. The two got very twisted up for a while - still are a bit. It can be very triggering for me.

Ironically it was my parents’ friends from their village church and our neighbours who were the only ones who felt able to support my parents when my Mum was sectioned. My parents’ closest friends and our own family mostly disappeared - mental health and mental illness support has come a long way since the 80s.

To make it relevant to the RF, it comes across to me that there is disfunction there but also genuine love. A lot of families are like that including mine. It is possible for your family to do everything they can for you and it still not be enough to meet your emotional needs. My family are able to adapt to me changing how I interact with them having had professional support. My in laws are not able to do this. So we medium chill/grey rock them so we can have a relationship with them without it damaging us.

@LondonWolf

I agree with you. They did welcome her, and bent many rules but then she wanted other rules bent (free gifts), as a blogger with the Tig, she must have been so excited to receive amazing freebies and then gutted/furious having to send them back.

The RF removed the trappings of the A-list lifestyle when they left, which are too expensive for them to maintain long term.

Londonwolf. I think you are spot on.

I remain convinced that this is fundamentally about money - cost of security etc and loss of status - no outriders and being hustled through the hoi polloi by burly, powerful armed police. Had the security bill continued to be picked up by KC I don't think we'd have heard a tenth of as much as we have from Montecito.

This comes down to being aggrieved about not getting the half in/half out role which would have picked up all those costs and allowed income from Charles. At the time of the announcement, I thought describing themselves as IPP was ambitious, to say the least, and just a route to getting fully international paid for security. I can believe the palace was tardy about responding to their emails about wanting to leave - as VL has quite rightly highlighted - but the lack of consultation fired up the discussion to be more confrontational. Saying you are going to collaborate with the Queen on a half in/half out model always seemed presumptuous.

Totally agree with all this.

To justify all the upheaval they caused by Meghxit, they would have to outdo whatever they left behind. To maintain credibility, they would have to be talented enough to do it without feeding off the royal connection. So far, they haven't managed either.

I think it will go further downhill now that they have sacked Sunshine Sachs. As a minimum, SS provided some good networking connections for their projects (Gloria S, Tyler Perry etc.) but if the actual project does not have legs then there was nothing else they could do for them.

There has recently been a lot of "Now, it's time to meet the real me" but it's not worked in their favour.

The Countess of Wessex would have been a good person from whom to learn (if M had been receptive to learning rather than constantly wanting to be the one in the driving seat). She's highly experienced in PR and managed to (more than) turn around her own tricky situation.

Her friend Misha Nonoo was one of a group who hung around in Royal Circles. Misha's first husband , Alexander Gilkes, was/is best friend of William, Harry and Kate. Pippa was in a long relationship with Alexander's brother.

At Nonoo's first wedding, in 2012, Harry, William, Kate, and all the Middleton were in attendance. Eugenie and Beatrice were also at the wedding, not sure if MM was friends with her then, but apparently their friendship dates since before 2015. Misha and her husband divorced in 2017.

It would be really strange if she knew nothing about H, considering how close Misha was to 'young' generation of the RF. Rumours are that it was Misha who set MM up with H.

Sushine Sachs provided the guests for the global citizen vax live concert which raised a lot of money and seemed to be set up like a launch pad for them but it seemed to fizzle out, like most of their endeavours. There are no more recent links with global citizen, they just shared an opinion on her podcast with Mariah Carey and H&M don’t seem to be involved with the 2022 concert

I believe (after a quick Google) that Meghan and Misha met in 2014 in Miami. So Meghan wasn't around for the first Nonoo wedding.

@Arucanafeather , sympathies 💐

I've just read all of this thread and the previous one. Thanks RandomPenguinHouse and everyone. It's been really interesting and almost all constructive (especially because I'm so late to the thread that the less constructive (coughs) ones were deleted.

A couple of posters asked about a reference made by a previously banned poster to a positive Meghan story. I think it must have been this one:

uk.style.yahoo.com/royal-advisors-branded-divas-meghan-markle-resurfaced-clip-131522117.html

One of the podcasters talks about her experiences meeting the Duchess at an event about her Smart Works capsule clothes wardrobe initiative.

At the time - and also after the Grenfell fire - I thought Meghan could reach groups who traditionally didn't feel a connection to the Royal Family.

I don't think this means Courtiers is flawed at all. It's just about the difference in doing a one off event and managing ongoing relationships with Palace staff.

A couple of posters also asked why Meghan stayed with her father:

www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1390336/meghan-markle-news-doria-ragland-thomas-markle-constant-battle-spt

I think Meghan's mother is very impressive to have established a new life and also to be incredibly discreet.

Re the difference between how Meghan and Andrew are treated by the press, it's worth remembering how pre the Epstein revelations, Prince Andrew got very positive coverage, especially in the aftermath of the Falklands when he was presented as a war hero. The real turning point was the Newsnight interview.

After writing all that, the real reason why I wanted to post here was to say that I think the big difference between working for a Hollywood celebrity and the Royal Family is that people employed by celebrities expect to be on call 24/7 and to be shouted at in return for the lifestyle and high wages. Staff in the Royal Household aren't meant to be very well paid and I think relationships between employer and worker are more intertwined (as in the example about the Queen and one of her security officers at Balmoral meeting the American tourists). As others have said, that was something Harry could have explained better.