The Times

[Rushingfool]

Anyone else think The Times should not be printing extracts from this new book about Royal Courtiers at this time? Incredibly stupid given that H&M are trying to mend fences? I feel really quite cross for everyone involved - William's efforts to build bridges etc, all going to be in vain now. Very naughty.

I think you need to educate yourself - 35 is generally considered the age for that medical decription

i men the ones who are publicly accusing M

Surely not these days?!!

@notanotheroneagain I agree - the earring this sounds like a set up. I wonder why nobody is shouting from the roof tops about Beatrices dodgy diamonds referenced earlier?

What about the other blood diamonds from South Africa, India, Zimbabwe and other colonies? Elizabeth had these on her crowns - was she also a bad person for this?

@Coucous Do you not have children or are you perhaps not in the UK? It has been standard practice here for mothers over 35 to be referred to in this way for a long time now. Lots of us are torn between being furious and finding it an amusing British quirk.

MM should not have been presented with controversial jewellery. She would have been presented with a tray of earrings (most likely designated to her), but she would not have necessarily asked too many questions, because the controversial ones should not have been included.

If you read the Royal Family guidelines that I quoted from upthread, the earrings were not controversial when they were given to the Queen as a wedding gift for Meghan. And, as they were a wedding gift to Meghan, they then formed part of Meghan’s collection and were under her own control to use as she wished (though they were not her personal property, so she could not sell them, for example).

I’m sure Angela Kelly would be interested in your suggestions for how things out to be run, though - why don’t you write to her? 😄

I actually think it’s reasonable to think that Meghan may not have joined the dots and realised they were now suddenly a controversial gift once she’d already selected them to wear on the tour. Unhelpfully though, the fact that their provenance was concealed suggests that this was quite clearly not a genuine mistake - somebody knew!

Sam Cohen told the press that the earrings were borrowed, which was not true (not even from the Queen, as explained above - they were in Meghan’s own control) and that they were also borrowed from Chopard - also not true (they were in actual fact made by a firm called Butani).

It would be interesting to know if Sam Cohen was lying to the press when she said this (Meghan was pretty adamant when talking to Oprah that her team weren’t prepared to lie to the press to protect her, though) or someone had in fact misled Sam Cohen herself (a very senior employee), knowing that what she told the press wasn’t true.

@SallyLockheart I can argue that I know enough about this - Meghan would NOT fall within the age range of those considered geriatric ! I can guarantee that no medic would write that in her notes either. Unless perhaps you are her doctor and have written this her notes - if you were I would challenge your expertise and probably report you to the GMC in the process.

This forum is hilarious - what next?

Can you tell us why you think the victims of the bullying have been paid for talking to the Times?

At 35 and above yes you are met with challenges in conception and child birth - BUT you are NOT geriatric! I have never seen this written in anyone's notes in the UK either.

I'm not an obstetrician or a geriatrician (the latter term is also falling/has fallen out of favour) but have a little knowledge of medicine.
Certainly a mother of 35 and above would be watched for problems that can occur in pregnancy as you get older. Meghan would certainly not be described medically as a "young" mother.

My opinion is that's not the point.
Meghan and Angela's ages or their maternal status shouldn't make any difference.
The phrases "young mother" and "grown OAP" add nothing useful to the debate.

On which planet? Certainly not on earth - any medic can attest to this. Can a geriatrician and obstetrician please educate them.

On this planet until fairly recently. It’s use is now being discouraged but it still happens

See here

At 35 and above yes you are met with challenges in conception and child birth - BUT you are NOT geriatric! I have never seen this written in anyone's notes in the UK either.

A simple search on Mumsnet will quickly show you you are dead wrong here.

per that link, I'm not sure I like "advanced maternal age" any better. and for the record, I had geriatric mother noted on my pregnancy record!

They are not victims until proven though are they? It can be argued that Meghan is a victim of racism and bullying too - but as people have indicated all of it is hearsay - without proof.

There's an article which suggests this - Like everything else about these nobody knows if any of this is true or not . . .

"It was curious seeing Dan Wootton give Meghan Markle both barrels this week. You'd think he'd be a little more friendly, given that he's such good pals with Wills and Kate's press secretary...” There is a “close connection between Mr Wootton and the Sussexes’ former Communications Secretary Christian Jones, who continues to be employed in the role by Prince William and Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge, and whose partner is freelance publicist Callum Stephens, who is also a friend to Wootton.” "Sources close to the matter say it is alleged The Sun made two payments amounting to £4,000 to Stephens, in relation to stories published in June and July 2019 about nannying and god-parenting arrangements for the Sussexes’ son Archie, and that the payments appear to have been identified by way of an internal News UK accounting code."

It’s the same in other countries.

I definitely had geriatric on my pregnancy notes - in the UK.

@Coucous And how many people's medical notes have you seen first=hand?

Unless you had Geriatric needs and were seen by a geriatrician - it's incorrect and beyond rude. I know some people try to shame mothers who have children late. Advanced maternal age is correct - however.

Again @Couscous, unless H&M now sue - as they are inclined to do - we can assume the allegations are factual. Otherwise they’d set the record straight in a court of law wouldn’t they.

So let’s wait and see. I’m sure the employees would welcome the opportunity to speak having been maltreated and silenced to date. I somehow doubt H&M will want their behaviour examined by the courts, even though they’ve been keen to utilise the courts in other matters.

OMG PMSL …

They are not victims until proven though are they?

That’s not true though, is it? There’s no-one on this thread who doesn’t think that Prince Andrew didn’t have sex with Virginia Giuffre, and that was entirely a case of “he said” “she said” which was never proven in court - anyone on the threads who challenged this was hounded for not believe in her, and for despicable victim blaming and minimisation.

In this case it’s not one story, its multiple stories, with lots of details, and supported by contemporaneous documents.

Are you seriously suggesting that a large number of employees got together and decided to construct an entire plot to discredit Meghan, co-ordinated their fictitious accounts, AND set up a false document trail back in 2018 in the hope that that they could then make use of this all three years later? And some of them were prepared to resign from their jobs to make this whole plot look more convincing?

Geriatric might have been used in the past by some, but the more common phrase was "Elderly Primip" (for a late first baby).
But the age of first time mothers has increased significantly in recent years so I don't think anyone really uses that phrase any more. I was an "elderly primip" 24 years ago and don't recall anyone using those words.

Even words around geriatrics are outdated these days though I think some specialists may still be Geriatricians. But in hospital we have a "care of the elderly" unit. I never hear anyone talking about geriatrics---- any more.

These extract are reading more and more like TB's book of lies.

I honestly thought it was about the courtiers. It isn't so far, but a rehash of media stories and lies about H&M.

I wonder if in his 'whistleblowing', VL will also tell us about the other royals supposed bullying as well as go on about how MM herself was bullied by the KP staff and called all sorts of names and those leaked to the press.

Laughable that posters say, the palace couldn't respond when they leak left, right and centre.

I don't often defend Meghan but I do think the earring issue is unfair.

1. They are fabulous and if I were gifted those earrings you'd have to wrestle me to the ground to prise them from my grasp.
2. I really don't think she could be expected to keep track of all the wedding gifts and who gave what and whose gifts weren't welcome.

That's the job of all those aides.

1. There probably isn't much communication between whoever organises the wardrobe and the aides who do things like sorting out all the gifts. Remember outfits for each occasion right down to accessories/jewellery will have been planned long before they got on a plane for the tour. I can't remember the exact timeline but the murder of Khashoggi happened well after the wedding and presumably when the gift was made so it is hardly surprising recommendations regarding the gift hadn't been updated.

So unless there's evidence she was given firm advice not to wear them but thumbed her nose and went ahead it seems very unfair to blame her. Even the second time....they do look great after all

The official classification of a geriatric pregnancy is where the mother is over 35. You can scoff and argue all you like but that is the case.