Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet

[Snog]

Do you think Prince Charles will bestow titles on Harry's children when he becomes king?

I wonder if Wales will want another prince of wales. I seem to remember that there was some that were against PC being made POW(reading it, im not old enough to remember the actual event)

From what I have read , W and C are very popular in Wales . Remember they lived there for a couple of years .
There are anti Monarchists everywhere ( I am married to one!) but overall I think Wales will be happy to have a new POW.

You’re quite right on the whole male line/female line issue (hence no HRH for Margaret’s children). I suppose I meant it more literally in terms of how important Harry’s children will be in the family, and in public perception.

Margaret was high profile and all over the press when she was a young and attractive princess, but generally slipped down the pecking order and somewhat off the radar as the Queen’s children grew up. I can see the same happening to Harry. Harry and Meghan are high profile now, so their children not getting the HRH style has created a lot of debate, but once the Cambridge children are old enough to be generating headlines in their own right, Harry won’t be tabloid fodder to quite the same level, and his children won’t be of great interest to the public. As you say, they will always be the grandchild of a sovereign (unless the Queen outlives Charles), but so is the Duke of Gloucester…

What would be the point of that?

Due to the sex discrimination of the aristocratic system, they don't have any titles they can pass on to their children, who are plain August Brooksbank and Sienna Mapelli Mozzi. Their 'princess' titles are, as someone said above, basically fancy names which mean very little. Your average Brit probably couldn't tell one of the York sisters apart from the other. They're not worth the bother, but they've never done anyone any harm, so removing their titles would just seem spiteful.

Even if the York Princesses had been Princes, their DC would not have been styled prince/ss as it extends only to grandchildren of the monarch. As their grandfather is only 9th in line to the throne, it's very, very unlikely there would be circumstances when they would ever be grandchildren of a king. So unlike the Sussex DC, there's no 'upgrade' in the offing.

There were separate one-off Letters Patent so that all the Cambridge DC had same royal style. Only the Cambridges, because they are the direct line (discussed above)

If the York girls had been boys, one would have inherited the York title. But thats returned to the Crown (and probably retired now as I can't see any of them wanting it for a bit...)

I thought the Queen offered titles for Anne's children but Anne said no.

It’s thought she offered Mark Philips an Earldom, similar to the offers to Antony Armstrong-Jones and Angus Ogilvy, but it was declined by him and Anne.

Just googled it and it was reported that Princess Anne was offered titles for her children and turned them down. Zara Tindall has apparently said she is glad the titles were turned down.

That report is not quite right.

The decision, presumably jointly with her then fiance, was that he would not be ennobled as a wedding present.

Therefore there were no styles or titles available for her DC. No royal style because it's only grandchildren in the male line, and no title because the parents didn't have one.

No because Mark Philips didn't accept a title their children wouldn't automatically get a title, hence the Queen offered them titles which were again turned down. The Queen can do that, I think they are called courtesy titles. There are lots of reports of it online and I remembered it from the time,.

I am doubtful about that, you don’t really get courtesy titles without a peerage, and I don’t think the Palace would have offered the kids’ titles at a later date when they’d grown up fine w/out them. I think Zara is referring to her father being offered an Earldom.

I guess what will happen with Charlotte is she’ll be offered an Earldom (ie be a Countess) in her own right, if she wants her kids to have titles.

I remember reading at the time that Mark Phillips was offered an Earldom in order that HM's first grandchildren would have courtesy titles (like the Armstrong Jones' children). That was turned down by Anne and Mark as pp have said, and I recall the headline when Peter was born, the Queen's first grandchild, plain "Master" Phillips.

It can't have been 'courtesy titles' ie styles, as they are wholly dependent on the main title from which they flow, and as explained above there were none available for the Phillips DC

There's no reason why they could not have been offered peerages when they came of age (in similar way to the gifts of dukedom/earldom on marriage and the when Princess Anne became Princess Royal).

I don't remember seeing any accounts of that, unlike situation with their father.

Absolutely not. Charles has been banging on about a "slimmed down" monarchy for ever and that means Charles and Camilla, William and Kate and their three kids. This is not new and the image at the end of the Jubilee told you all you needed to know.

In the next generation, I wouldn't expect the children of Charlotte and Louis to be given HRH or Prince/Princess titles either.

As such, the Princess Royal's children could not inherit titles, but the Queen did make her daughter an offer. From the Express

Princess Anne has spoken about her decision not to give her children HRH (His/Her Royal Highness) titles in a rare interview. From The Independent.

What's more, when Anne became a mum, she and Mark Phillips decided that they wanted their children to lead as normal lives as possible. As Anne was the only daughter of the Queen and Prince Philip, her children weren’t guaranteed a royal title – unlike the children of the monarch's male offspring. However, the Queen still offered courtesy titles to both Mark when he married Anne, and their children, which the Princess declined. From Hello magazine.

These are just a selection of the reports online. Did they all get it wrong?

I dont think so.
There are two paths, on board, tight lipped, never give the media any information

Or go your own way and make the most lucrative commercial deals possible, trading information/private thoughts.

I dont see how charles could give their children titles. They live in the usa anyway.

@ancientgran

No, they are all referring to Mark Philips being offered an Earldom, an offer that would have been put to him and Anne jointly, and would have made Peter Viscount something and Zara Lady Zara Philips

If you read the independent article Anne doesn’t talk about the kids being offered HRH titles, she’s talking about them having titles from their father, and the general challenge of having a royal title. It’s just a click bait article title

its all rather interesting. I assumed that seeing that PH was a prince, his children would become prince and princess once PC is king.
I suppose the queen has been queen so long we have nothing in living memory to go by.

They will gain those titles automatically.

Several of George V’s grandchildren, including Prince William and Prince Richard of Gloucester, Princess Alexandra and Prince Michael of Kent, gained their HRH Prince/Princess title at birth due to being grandchildren of a monarch, even though their grandfather was already deceased when they were born.

Its an automatic right and the only question is if it’ll be used or not.

I dont see how charles could give their children titles. They live in the usa anyway.

As has been said already - he won’t be “giving” them titles. The moment he becomes King they automatically become HRH Prince and HRH Princess.

The only way they won’t is if he doesn’t become King or if the Queen changes the 1917 Letters Patent before her death.

What happens if Charles dies before the Queen? If that was to happen Archie and Lili will only have be the great grandchildren then niece and nephew of a monarch.whiich isn't an automatic entitlement - I've tried to find a precedent for that scenario but can't find one.

Then they won't become Prince and Princess. Harry won't become HRH The Prince Henry, he'd stay as he was. William would never be the Duke of Cornwall.

It hasn't happened since the 1917 LP's were issued, titles were more spread around before that so there isn't an example of it, but it's what would happen.

The last monarch to outlive his direct heir and be succeeded by his grandchild was George II, but his grandchildren were only in their teens when their father died, so there were no great-grandchildren. (Obviously this was before the 1917 Letters Patent anyway, but is the last time it would have potentially been an issue under current rules.)