Prince Andrew Thread 2

[Roussette]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4442126-Prince-Andrew

Here is previous thread.

I've started a new thread because today and tomorrow is crucial as far as the pending civil case.

And I also had a few comments I wanted to say to posters at the end of the last thread, but it ran out.

I agree Fergie has skin in the game to protect his name. But just eugh to the honourable man rubbish. Whether he committed a crime or not, hooking up with someone near the age of his daughter with the huge power imbalance hardly makes him a paragon of virtue and worthy behaviour.

She should really keep quiet, it honestly just makes it worse. It's sickeningly tone-deaf to the severity of the situation with young girls trafficked for sex.

This is what the FBI have been aiming for, a legal ruling on the validity of the agreement.
I am sure VG has been assured that all her legal expenses will be taken care of in the event the case fails.
I bet there are a lot.of people sweating ....even those who can't....

Sarah Ferguson used thousands of pounds supplied by convicted paedophile Jeffrey Epstein to pay off debt - and said she "abhor[red] sexual abuse of children"

The Duchess of York struck a deal with the disgraced financier, which came to light in 2011 after he had already spent time behind bars for soliciting a 14-year-old girl for prostituted sex

Epstein, who was found dead in a jail cell in August this year, had paid £15,000 to Sarah's former personal assistant Johnny O'Sullivan to cover part of his unpaid salary

At the time, Sarah was some £5million in debt and owed her ex-PA £78,000 in wages and bills, but was able to restructure her debts after he agreed to take the £15,000
Daily Mirror

@SerendipityJane

How stupid are we that he can go horse riding with the queen on private grounds, drive himself around, send his ex wife and daughters off skiing in Verbier for the holidays in a chalet there’s no way he could have paid for legitimately… It’s shockingly outrageous, hypercritical, duplicitous, immoral, arrogant, EVERYTHING

We are stupid enough to still have a Monarchy. As long as we have then any other batshittery is mere trivia.

Maybe my grandchildrens children will live free of the insult that they were born into a country where they are not equal to any.

And all the hand wringing over this story needs to be viewed through the prism of a nation that - by clinging onto the ludicrous notion of a Monarch - enabled this to happen. If you have stood and waved your little Union Flag as her madge rolled past, the you are a tiniest part of how this has been "allowed" to happen.

You may have gathered that my late DM was not really a poster child for Monarchy. And in my lifetime I've never had cause to disagree with her views.

Absolutely this.

When great swathes of the populace regard this bunch of inbreds as somehow superior to the rest of us, it's no wonder that some of them think they're entitled to do what they like and that they are above the law.

It's time for them to go. Actually, it's long past time they went. Let Betty be the last of them.

@bubblesbubbles11 I get what you mean, if PA comes under the umbrella of those that can’t be sued, then they are admitting that he was actually someone that could be sued .

@BigotSpigot

Maireas apparently Epstein had more telephone numbers for Sarah than he had for Andrew, so I think we can assume they had dealings, at the very least around the debts he paid off for her.

Ghastly woman.

Wasn't Wayne Couzens a MET security detail officer? not suggesting he was One for PA but clearly vetting for the post of decorum detail not steller.

"Those “security” people are actually senior officers with the Metropolitan police."

Sorry, that's the quote my comment was in repose to

Thanks, @StoneofDestiny and others.
She's seriously implicated.

maybe PA tried to pimp the Duchess out to Epstein ..... (tried) that would have worked well I am sure!

I think that Sarah is utterly deluded and has no option, due to her gaping incapacity to manage her life, to cling to Andrew like shit to a blanket. It also wouldn't surprise me at all that, as an abuser, he pulls all her strings and those of his daughters.

@Roussette

And can we clear this up once and for all.... so many times on the previous thread I was told by posters I was wrong. *@Luredbyapomegranate*, here you go! You're the recent one I wanted to reply to but the thread ran out before I could.

Today from Sky News...
"Ms Giuffre claims she was trafficked by Epstein to have sex with the Duke of York when she was aged 17, a minor under US law, and was pictured with the royal and Ghislaine Maxwell during the period the alleged intercourse took place."

@Roussette Yes - she was a minor in US law, but she was over the age of consent. The age of sexual consent in NY is 17, age of majority is 18. (16 and 18 in the UK.)

NY has opened a window for people who were minors to bring cases against alleged perpetrators in cases that would otherwise be too old. VG is hoping to use this window to have the court regard her as a minor, PA lawyers will point out she was over age of consent, so on the straight sexual consent question, it is on the line. I think personally unless she can persuade the court he knew she was being coerced, she’s going to have a tough time. It’s a civil case so I guess it’s a lower burden of proof, but even so, I think the combination of PA’s stupidity and arrogance, and a lack of evidence will make it hard.

Mango wood

I know this is a deeply upsetting delicate case but fact he's having to defend his sweating, its so undignified!
It amuses me.
It's like an extra side helping of humiliation for him and the rf. I Can't imagine the Queen saying "so Andrew, what about your apparently excessive sweat issue"..

"But VG's lawyers will have known about her settlement with Epstein, so if it's likely she can't sue any of his associates because of it, why bring the civil case in the first place?"

To keep the whole thing in the public eye?

@Luredbyapomegranate except Maxwell used the same arguments about not knowing the teenagers were sex trafficked, that Andrew is planning to use. It has been proved in a court that they were trafficked for sex.

I think it's all a bit irrelevant now to be honest pomegranate.

Tomorrow is a big day for PA and VG. Is PA exempted or not. VG's lawyers are saying the parameters were too broad to include him.

"it's no wonder that some of them think they're entitled to do what they like and that they are above the law."

Absolutely, to put it politely, PA is a arrogant, nasty little toe-rag. But is his arrogance really a surprise? He has been brought up with people bowing to him, whenever they met him (with the exception of the few above him in status, which wasn't that many until PC got married and had his own children).
If you grow up being told that you are special (just for exiting someone's vagina), it's no surprise that you will eventually believe you really are special. The arrogance, and self-righteousness will soon follow.

@100problems

I think that Sarah is utterly deluded and has no option, due to her gaping incapacity to manage her life, to cling to Andrew like shit to a blanket. It also wouldn't surprise me at all that, as an abuser, he pulls all her strings and those of his daughters.

I think you're right - I've also been reading that SF has been spending time with the Queen, pleading Andrew's case.

@bubblesbubbles11 I get what you mean, if PA comes under the umbrella of those that can’t be sued, then they are admitting that he was actually someone that could be sued .

That's how this thread, and likely everyone with comprehension skills on this planet will read it.

But the flip side is she signed to say she wouldn't sue, and that's the tack that the defence will likely take.

Maybe it could be argued she was under duress; that this is a civil claim etc You also wonder who her lawyers were in 2009 and who was paying for them; could their partiality be challenged? Who knows at this stage. Tomorrow and the rest of the week will be interesting though.

I've also been reading that SF has been spending time with the Queen, pleading Andrew's case

Poor thing. The Queen that is.

If PP were still alive she wouldn't be able to do that.

Whatever happens - by having a team fighting hard to stop Andrew having to give evidence as a witness simply underscores his guilt. It's horrendous. If it was any of us we'd be hooked straight out of our homes without choice (unless you can afford to pay for your defence as you are paying for Andrew's)

[quote RoyalFamilyFan]@Luredbyapomegranate except Maxwell used the same arguments about not knowing the teenagers were sex trafficked, that Andrew is planning to use. It has been proved in a court that they were trafficked for sex.[/quote]
That’s entirely different - Maxwell was accused of trafficking. VG is alleging only that PA knew she was trafficked. He’s far far less entangled in Epstein’s affairs than Maxwell who was Epstein’s right hand woman, so it would be harder to prove he knew.

Also VG’s case wasn’t part of the Maxwell trial, probably because Maxwell’s prosecutors’ thought her story too complex, so I don’t know that helps her either.

I’m not defending PA BTW, I think the man is a twat. I do think he had sex with her, and is entirely immoral. I also think he is so arrogant and stupid he may not have known she was coerced - but either way, hard to prove.

I know this thread has not been kind to the Queen, and I understand why. But seriously, just how low do you have to go to be exploiting the emotions of a 95 year old person?

I want HMQ to be quietly biding her time until whatever the sordid outcome is, and then "swipe": strip everything, exile to some remote shithole, ban on any publication in a SA of her own in exchange for a dowry that, whilst offensive to all of us in its size, is fractions of what the grasping cunt is used to.

Generally, people that have been wronged want the perpetrator to pay for what they’ve done, why would VG be chasing PA otherwise?

I have no proof of course but it simply cannot be that only western girls were involved in this. I have read (unsubstantiated) accounts of girls being trafficked to the island from poorer countries, their passports removed and they were served up to the male visitors. These poor girls wouldn't ever have been given a pay off, they would have been scared off and dumped. Whilst VG must have had a horrible time I bet she was seen as a slightly more superior offering. She also comes across as educated so could develop the confidence to do this. My point is I strongly suspect PA would have seen all kinds of girls going into rooms and heard all the banter before going into rooms with VG and probably other girls. He knew. He knew what was going on. He's a vile sex offender and yes normally 'innocent until proven guilty' is my mantra, but let's face it he's never going to get to court (thanks to Queenie) so I'll just make up my own mind thanks.