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The royal family

BBC The Princes and the Press

999 replies

coniferforest · 23/11/2021 09:24

Did anyone watch this last night? About William and Harry and their different approaches to the press. Last night was part 1 of 2.

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lupad · 30/11/2021 08:53

I don’t really understand the need for all this security. Zara , Beatrice and Eugenie don’t need it so why do they? If they let their profile fizzle away quietly, I’m sure no one would care or be interested. They could both retrain and start new careers .

Surely it's personal choice? I wouldn't take the risk myself.

lupad · 30/11/2021 08:57

These aren't the paps from the 80s chasing his dm.

He clearly resents the "press" & relationship that royals are meant to have with them.

lupad · 30/11/2021 08:58

The press have the power as people have to want the RF

lupad · 30/11/2021 09:00

@SnottyLottie that's awful, I think it's disgusting when the press do that.

lupad · 30/11/2021 09:02

I like aspects of both families and dislike other aspects. Why do I have to pick a side? We’re all human and we all have good points and bad points. Just because you like one doesn’t mean that my positive feelings for the other aren’t valid any more.

I agree

lupad · 30/11/2021 09:03

Totally agree they were a massive asset, sadly Harry and his ego would never have settled for number 2 status. He wanted to run his own show and wasn't allowed.

I never got the impression H wanted to be King, who in their right mind would!

SickAndTiredAgain · 30/11/2021 09:13

@lupad

I don’t really understand the need for all this security. Zara , Beatrice and Eugenie don’t need it so why do they? If they let their profile fizzle away quietly, I’m sure no one would care or be interested. They could both retrain and start new careers .

Surely it's personal choice? I wouldn't take the risk myself.

Zara lives on Princess Anne’s estate, and Eugenie lives in Frogmore Cottage I think, so I imagine their homes, particularly FC in Windsor, will be pretty secure anyway even if they don’t have specific security just for them.
YourenutsmiLord · 30/11/2021 09:14

Everyone has a gun in the US - I wouldn't feel that safe Hmm

lupad · 30/11/2021 09:16

@SickAndTiredAgain I didn't know that. I can't berate H&M wanting security, I would want it too.

julieca · 30/11/2021 09:19

Yes generally known RF members who do not have allocated security live on a RF estate. That will already have security. So not comparable.
And the press had whipped up so much strong feeling around Meghan, that I understand why they want security.

SueSaid · 30/11/2021 09:22

'never got the impression H wanted to be King, who in their right mind would'

No not king but level pegging VIP/celeb wise. He didn't want to walk behind anyone. Understandably so perhaps, it is all a weird set up.

So not king but he seemed to want to call the shots/do it all their way and they weren't allowed to.

Roussette · 30/11/2021 09:27

Well... he obviously wouldn't be level pegging would he? It's like saying Princess Margaret was level pegging with the Queen. She never was. He's not that stupid.
I agree he wanted to do it his way and TBH I think the RF needed someone doing it differently quite honestly. But the RF weren't (and will they ever be?) ready for change.

Maybe if this had all happened under Charles's reign, it might've been different. That's an interesting thought ho hum

lupad · 30/11/2021 09:31

So not king but he seemed to want to call the shots/do it all their way and they weren't allowed to.

I see what you mean but tbh again I think in Hs position I would probably want to do the same. I'm a bit of a rebel! 😆

Aspiringmatriarch · 30/11/2021 09:31

No not king but level pegging VIP/celeb wise. He didn't want to walk behind anyone.

There isn't any evidence of this though, is there?

The impression I get is that yes, they wanted to have more freedom, and they were frustrated by the stuffiness of the institution. And I think Harry was just never going to play ball with the press - which I don't blame him for - and has developed a lot of mistrust from living in that environment and seeing the different Royal households (his dad, his brother) come to their own compromises with the media and potentially be willing to allow his wife and him to be damaged in order to maintain the status quo and their own reputations.

I'm sure there is another side to that - I don't envy any of them being in that position and I can understand e.g. William knowing he will become head of state, has had to make certain choices.

But honestly I've seen zero evidence that this was about the traditional royal pecking order or even competition over celebrity status, on Harry's part. He has his faults but I don't think he really cares about that, and seems to find it all that goes along with it tremendously stressful.

julieca · 30/11/2021 09:34

@SnottyLottie

Sorry I went a little off topic there.

I think Scobie came off really well and balanced in his interview. I thought he would be very gushing of H&M after reading a few of his articles but I’m pleasantly surprised. I really appreciated how he discussed feeling pressured to pick a team. It really resonated with me. I like aspects of both families and dislike other aspects. Why do I have to pick a side? We’re all human and we all have good points and bad points. Just because you like one doesn’t mean that my positive feelings for the other aren’t valid any more. But I suppose if you’re in the media it’s the way you spin stories to generate interest and cash.

It was a very interesting documentary although I have to admit the men in the family don’t come out looking great, do they? Harry seems very angry, William seems manipulative and Charles doesn’t seem to care about anything unless it reflects negatively on himself. That’s just my opinion though.

I agree with this. It is ironic that the press focus so much on criticising the women, when generally they all seem much nicer than the men.
SueSaid · 30/11/2021 09:46

'There isn't any evidence of this though, is there?'

'The impression I get is that yes, they wanted to have more freedom, and they were frustrated by the stuffiness of the institution'

No there isn't any evidence for my comment it's just the impression I get, like the impression you get about other things.

I feel sorry for H, a child of a toxic marriage then people probably tiptoeing round him after his dm's tragic death. He was always going to be a complex character. He did the right thing leaving, it's just such a shame he has chucked so much shit at his family. He'll regret it one day all that projection.

julieca · 30/11/2021 09:46

And all the stuff about Harry wanting them to be level pegging, just seem the equivalent of - they're just jealous Hun.

I think the truth is far more complex. Harry obviously has major issues with the press and blames them for his mothers death. He also is aware that his father had an affair with Camilla, and that his mother blamed the RF for her unhappiness. This creates a complex conflict of loyalties.
Added to that there is the fallout between Harry and William that the foreign papers reported and Harrys feelings around that harking back to what his dad did to his mother.
So I think there is a lot in the mix there. So Harry had effectively decided to go low contact with his family. A not unusual solution in complex family dynamics, and to step away from the British press as much as he can.
So in summary, an intercomplex web of causes, not one simple cause.

julieca · 30/11/2021 09:49

And the RF has proven very poor at dealing with unhappy members of the RF. It always seems to lead to major fallout, when perhaps more skilled individuals could at least sometimes secure a better solution.

PreparationPreparationPrep · 30/11/2021 10:23

@Roussette

I honestly think it was never going to work. There is too much going on behind the scenes... too much of the press pitting one woman against the other, one couple against the other. Add into that Harry's huge dislike of the press, and William's protection of the RF at all costs and it was never going to be.

However, I have disagreed for years about Harry wanting number 1 status. I honestly honestly don't think this. I just think he was too damaged by what happened to his Mother, and him and Meghan wanted to do it their way and given the RF haven't changed much since 1950, it was never going to work. If there is a middle management team, i.e. some of the courtiers, they ought to be changing and refreshing them. They need new forward thinking people in there.

If only, the RF had tried to modernise a bit a long time ago, it might've been a very different story.

Agree with this - I don't think Harry wanted to be alongside William at all - he knows exactly how things are. My guess is that it's the courtiers and the press that he dislikes and doesn't hide it unlike others who are good at it. William probably feels the same but it's in his and Kate's interest to play this long game. Harry had to play along but meeting Meghan the abuse became worse rather than subsiding so with Meghan and a young family he then had a good reason and the long term support not from just anyone but someone who you trust will have your back. Others are saying there was nothing knew - but I can now see why the RF wanted to see the programme before it was aired. I wonder why H&M didn't add their name to the statement? As well as the leaks at least it also came out publicly that Meghan was vilified for doing very similar things that Kate was gushed at for because this was denied on MN too.
SueSaid · 30/11/2021 10:35

'think the truth is far more complex. Harry obviously has major issues with the press and blames them for his mothers death. He also is aware that his father had an affair with Camilla, and that his mother blamed the RF for her unhappiness. This creates a complex conflict of loyalties.'

Yes the truth will be far more complex. A very fucked up upbringing with lots of simmering resentment that he kept a lid on but then found his voice. Again, i absolutely agree with him leaving I just obviously disagree with all his 'poor me' stunts like Finding Freedom and OW. He didn't just want a lovely LA life with his family away from the evil BP, he wanted to give his family a good public kicking too and that is very shit.

upinaballoon · 30/11/2021 10:51

SnottyLottie :- Why do I have to pick a side?

Exactly. I sounded off 3/4 years ago about the press playing off the two young, lovely-to-look-at and seemingly pleasant duchesses, and I did again, about 4/5 weeks ago when the Bella magazine had a headline 'Sisters at war', because one went to one place looking good wearing whatever, and the other went to another place looking good wearing whatever. No, I didn't buy the magazine, but no doubt it sells well with those headlines.

upinaballoon · 30/11/2021 11:07

@lupad

The press have the power as people have to want the RF
The papers and the TV and SM have immense power, about everything, not just the RF, and not one single person among them is a democratically-elected MP.
rubicscubicle · 30/11/2021 11:12

It was good to get a reminder of. what H&M have been through.

-I still have no idea what H&M leaked about the Cambridges, since Wootten keeps saying the was leaks from all sides.

-Basically the British press is bitter about not know when Meghan gave births exactly. They also wanted her to introduce the baby immediately.

-Rehash on the Frogmore renovations and the absurdity of of the complaints

-Jan Moir's article actually says about Meghan : me, myself and I

  • There was no reaction on positive stories about MM, so the press decided to ramp the hate up.
  • Glad MM lawyer talked about the privacy and what it actually means - H&M have been beaten a lot with this stick. Like how they showed Piers Morgan shouting and showing how ridiculous h is, I wish they had also played the Oprah clip when MM talks about thee privacy.

-Lawyer saying what big businesses H&M are.

  • Rehash on budget flight fiasco, though I wish they would have talked more about how the flights had to fly empty and how this was a passive aggressive move.

-They did not mention that Kate took a private jet in Ireland after announcing Earthshot.

-William giving reporters a group hug is ridiculous, it emboldens them to write even more vitriol about his brother and his wife.

-Valentine admits he was told to publish the story pre emptive to the Oprah interview.

-We did not hear who leaked the Canada location.

-Wootton is putting a timeline of a week between New year for Harry to discuss with the queen his own future. 27Dec till 3 January - Dan says that is plenty of time. In the meantime, Harry is stopped by the palace from seeing the queen even though they had made arrangements to meet.

-Rachel Johnson says Kate does not put a foot wrong, even though its been demonstrated that MM does the same things and gets slaughtered for it.

-Anna from Tatler does not mention that Tatler only removed the mention of Rose in the paragraph they took off the article. Nevertheless, she says the problem was with her talking about class.

Glad this documentary was aired. So many people say they don't like Meghan and are not aware they are being fed information subtly - a drip of poison.

I do wish the Royal Family could have appointed spokespeople by name instead of this drip feed behind the curtains by 'palace sources'. It just sounds so deceptive.

Bouledeneige · 30/11/2021 11:18

I felt a bit of context was missing from the programme or not fully discussed. One key element was that Harry had a perfectly decent relationship with the press when him, William and Kate were promoting their charitable work through the Royal Foundation, supporting the London Olympics or he was creating the Invictus games in the UK. He was positive, genial and fun. I think we all rather liked him then and the dynamics of the three of them. He wasn't displaying the animosity and sheer hatred of the press that he is now and he was willing to play the 'game' which I think the programme helpfully explained - you give the press some of what they want and they in turn give you an easy ride.

The problem was finding a girlfriend/wife. He wanted what his brother had with Kate, but he knew that it would be difficult for him to find. Firstly William and Kate had a lot off privacy afforded to them as students and so they were able to conduct a lot of the early years of the relationship in relative obscurity. But Harry knew that many women in their 20s or 30s at an older and more confident and independent stage of their life - not an impressionable 18 or 19 year old - would baulk at the pressures of having a relationship with him, being in the public eye, having to follow strict royal protocols and be followed by the press. Both Chelsey Davy and Cressida Bonas walked away from him because they weren't willing to take it on - it wasn't a life they wanted to lead. Honestly, who would want to live like that?

Ironically if he had looked more amongst his peers in the aristocracy he might have been more likely to find someone who was brought up with similar expectations on duty, stiff upper lip and traditional male/female roles. A traditional posh army wife would have been perfect. Of course they are rarer now than in his mothers day. Diana was a lamb to the slaughter because she was both from that background and an impressionable 19 year old and she was marrying a man in love with someone else.

But because Harry was more of a celebrity Prince (not army, hunting shooting, fishing landed aristo) he seemed to be attracted to more creative, feisty outgoing women who would find it particularly onerous and restrictive - not like Kate who was willing to hang about and wait for William (whilst he played the field) and to act the part of the dutiful unspeaking wife.

It might also have been that they very success of their tripartite engagement with good causes (Harry, William and Kate) made press and public interest even stronger, and the set up for a new partner all the more difficult.

There was an opportunity in the early days of their relationship and marriage that Harry and Meghan could have broken the mould a bit and modernised the royal family. That modernisation would have been held in check whilst the Queen is still alive but probably could have made more progress once she was departed. Instead by going away and cutting a new path they have forced William and Kate back into a very traditional and conservative role (though they were always more duty bound anyway).

Perhaps with Harry's personality it was always going to be a push for him to stay in the fold in the pointless role of the ever more distant spare to the heir.

But the key point for me that Amal Rajan made successfully in the programme was that once you take on the press and start suing them then its fair game for them to say what they like about you, without the deal with the press the coverage will inevitably be more challenging. There isn't anything more British than toppling statues and bringing back down to ground entitlement. There ain't anything much more entitled than a Prince and Duchess. Harry and Meghan don't have anything to lose now. But the Royal Family 'the firm' do. They need public support to continue and therefore however much they loathe it, they need a deal with the press.

BonnesVacances · 30/11/2021 11:28

@JaniieJones

'The sad thing is I think the RF would have more longevity if H&M had stayed & there was more of all 4 of them collaborating etc. '

Totally agree they were a massive asset, sadly Harry and his ego would never have settled for number 2 status. He wanted to run his own show and wasn't allowed.

It really is all such a shame. Family relationships can be complex and toxic, despite all the privilege they are the same as the rest of us in that regard.

I don't think you need to not have an ego to be happy to settle for number 2 status. There aren't many people who'd accept being the second favourite in two DC and have grown up being continually told so. H probably met M who would have been like WTAF is this toxic nightmare you're living with? And when you add in H's shaky mental health it was an unhealthy environment for sure.

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