Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

The royal family

Palace appoints external lawyers to probe MM bullying...

663 replies

Sprining · 14/03/2021 11:17

Last week, in the lead up to Meghan and Harry’s eagerly anticipated Oprah interview, Palace sources were quoted as saying that the Palace was “prepared to retaliate with fresh disclosures about the couple’s behaviour if the monarchy is attacked”.

Great, so what next

External lawyers to probe bullying by other royals?
External lawyers to probe racism within RF?
External lawyers to probe whether there was disability discrimination in denying support for mental health?
External lawyers to problem Andrews behaviour and whether it broke public code of conduct (not criminal investigation, but did he bring us into disrepute type of stuff)?

Is this a vendetta or is RF finally going to be be subject to public accountability?

OP posts:
the80sweregreat · 16/03/2021 09:36

I feel that the culture of covering things up has gone on for too long. A few institutions such as the police, the Royals, Westminster employees have had stories of all sorts going over the years yet nothing is ever done about it! Lessons will be learned Never are.
I'm just listening to five live radio and they are talking about bullying in gymnastics now.
I'm sure there are many stories of bullying and intimidation, racism etc that are brushed under the carpet.

LakieLady · 16/03/2021 09:44

@Sprining

And why don’t ‘working’ royals have employment contracts? After all, they are paid for by the public.

What are the health and safety procedures, maternity policies and grievance process etc. for a ‘working’ royal?

They're not employed or appointed though, are they? They're either born or married into the role. So there won't be any of the policies or procedures referred to. Or a diversity/equalities policy either.

Given that they're not employees, it's hard to see what they could do if a senior royal was bullying staff. They couldn't be given a warning, sent for training or put under capability or performance management measures. A quiet talking to from HM would be about as tough as it gets. Or something really drastic, like cut off any money they get from us.

It's a complete anachronism and another reason why the whole shitshow should be abolished when the present incumbent dies.

Authenticchicken · 16/03/2021 09:48

I agree with a) but I imagine any investigation will need to concentrate on actual allegations and how they were handled examining HR procedure. But this could then protect future staff.

I don't disagree ref. the other points.

Authenticchicken · 16/03/2021 09:52

I agree ref. covering up. There is a procedure for reporting allegations against people working with children. As far as I can tell the same stringent procedure does not apply at Westminster, the palace, people working in care homes etc. As for workplace bullying, most people just resign. I once tried to report pregnancy discrimination at my (large, public sector) employer and was told by my large HR team to report it to my manager, about whom my complaint was Confused

the80sweregreat · 16/03/2021 10:05

It was telling that Meghan mentioned during the internet that there wasn't a Union she could approach when she was feeling suicidal and she asked HR instead.
She said in her old job she had a union to go to. I was a bit puzzled by what she meant , but thinking about it later on made me wonder what the set up is about their employment rights? Do they have to sign contracts? Do they have to work a set amount of hours? Is it the same as being employed in a 'normal' job?
I have never thought about it before. I just thought they did their ' duties' and a lot of it is paid for via taxes. (Public ' purse' )
William worked as a RAF pilot for years externally from his Royal duties. Meghan being asked to work isn't unusual. Harry said he was told she could work as an actress as there wasn't any money available for them ( his words from the interview)
I suppose Meghan wasn't aware she would be expected to work two roles? Kate has her charity work and general Royal duties.

the80sweregreat · 16/03/2021 10:06

Interview not internet

LakieLady · 16/03/2021 10:09

And what was the whole deal behind SouthYork. It was sold to Kazakh billionaire for 3 million over the asking price, who was then subject to a money laundering investigation

I had completely forgotten about that little gem. Thanks for the reminder, @TatianaBis. Grin

Airmiles Andy really is a loathsome individual who appears to be utterly lacking in decency. Yet he is reputedly the queen's favourite child. Hmm

StatisticallyChallenged · 16/03/2021 10:36

The loathsome ones often are the favourite IME...

The employment situation is an interesting one and hard to draw parallels really. The royals aren't employees, but they're not really business owners/directors (I suppose HMQ is, and Charles for the dutchy).

We have a small family business, technically owned by DH but I do (unpaid) work for it - I'm the numbers and spreadsheet person and do a lot of business development stuff- and all of the staff know me and consider me to be one of their bosses. But technically I'm not really, their contract isn't with me. And I'm not an employee either. It strikes me that in a way the royal employees are probably in a similar situation, employed by one institution but providing services to an individual who isn't an employee.

(I work full time in my own separate job btw)

It does seem, on reflection, like it might have been better for Meghan to keep working in acting at least initially.

Sprining · 16/03/2021 10:42

So how does it work @StatisticallyChallenged, can these employees take a bullying claim out against you given that your are not their employer or colleague? And since you do not have a contractual relationship of any type with their employer (eg you are not an employee, client or supplier) on what basis could they know what their role is in relation to you?

OP posts:
StatisticallyChallenged · 16/03/2021 10:54

That's kind of my point. These sort of ambiguities exist in many family run businesses, or on big estates, even farms for example. Not unusual for a farm to be owned by the husband but for the wife to be involved in the running (or vice versa of course) even if she's technically not an employee or owner IYSWIM.

So I'm curious as to what the actual employment set up is with various people in the Royal household/institution

Sprining · 16/03/2021 11:00

It strikes me as a very odd way of running a business, surely you should be on the books if you are providing a service to the company and involved in running it and telling employees what to do?

And an even odder situation if this is how we run our top public funded state institution!

OP posts:
Alsohuman · 16/03/2021 11:04

@Sprining

It strikes me as a very odd way of running a business, surely you should be on the books if you are providing a service to the company and involved in running it and telling employees what to do?

And an even odder situation if this is how we run our top public funded state institution!

It doesn’t matter how odd you find it. It’s commonplace. You’ll encounter many things in life that don’t accord with your view of how things should be done.
StatisticallyChallenged · 16/03/2021 11:11

I didn't ask for a critique thanks. Effectively I choose to support my spouse, it would be utterly pointless for me to bill him for my time when I earn more than he does! It was an example, that's all.

But consider, say, a housekeeper on a large estate. There might be parents, adult children, other family members. Chances are there is no official employment relationship between the adult children and the housekeeper but they will still be expected to provide services to them.

The question was actually asked in the leaked email, I think, about whether the harrassment policy applied to "principals" so it suggests the royals themselves are not employees.

derxa · 16/03/2021 11:14

@StatisticallyChallenged

That's kind of my point. These sort of ambiguities exist in many family run businesses, or on big estates, even farms for example. Not unusual for a farm to be owned by the husband but for the wife to be involved in the running (or vice versa of course) even if she's technically not an employee or owner IYSWIM.

So I'm curious as to what the actual employment set up is with various people in the Royal household/institution

Farms are minefields for this. The lines are often blurred leading to huge family feuds. The situation which often comes up is exactly like the William and Harry debacle. The elder son is expected to take over when the parents step down. The sons get married and the two families fall out. One son and his wife want out and want their share of the business. The scenario you cited is a bit patronising to women farmers. i own and run my own farm. Husband and wife joint owned farming businesses are more common than the Sole trader husband.
StatisticallyChallenged · 16/03/2021 11:22

Wasn't aiming to be patronising - I know a few farmers with this set up. Didn't say it was the most common setup just that it's not unusual. I even said or vice versa.

I was trying to use some alternatives examples which I know of. It's a two minute post on a forum not a feminist analysis of the role of women in farming.

derxa · 16/03/2021 11:54

@StatisticallyChallenged

Wasn't aiming to be patronising - I know a few farmers with this set up. Didn't say it was the most common setup just that it's not unusual. I even said or vice versa.

I was trying to use some alternatives examples which I know of. It's a two minute post on a forum not a feminist analysis of the role of women in farming.

Sorry Statisically I didn't mean to be snippy. It's just that women are hugely involved in farming now. The NFU leader is a woman, Minette Batters. Anyway your analogy was a good one. Peace and love on a lovely sunny day. Just come in from the lambing shed and lots of new lambs.
StatisticallyChallenged · 16/03/2021 12:03

No worries Derxa - I know that many have a better set up but obviously they wouldn't be an example of the blurred lines situation.

MIL is from a farming family and 3 of her sisters married farmers which is why it came to mind!

Jealous of the lambs, nice way to spend the morning! Beats a spreadsheet...

derxa · 16/03/2021 12:14

Jealous of the lambs, nice way to spend the morning! Beats a spreadsheet... Grin Well I look like Hagrid, am covered in sheep after birth and have iodine stained hands. Meghan and I don't have much in common!! Sorry for the derail

Sprining · 16/03/2021 12:23

It is interesting Statistically that you mentioned a housekeeper example. In Kate’s case, allegedly one of the things her housekeeper found too stressful and unacceptable was Carole Middleton interfering, criticising and telling her what to. Although she had worked for the Queen for many years, she quit because it was ‘too demanding’

Would that be the sort of thing the internal investigation will cover?

And more generally, I wonder, do want our head of state institutions, costing us huge sums, run on principles of managing domestic help?

OP posts:
IrmaFayLear · 16/03/2021 12:37

Why, @Sprining , are you happy to cite any piece of hearsay about the rf but deny anything said about H&M, and even start numerous threads singing their praises?

I repeat - again and again and again - why can't you possibly admit that there is truth/untruth on both sides and H&M aren't any more saintly than the rf?

As others have said, someone can be a victim and a bully. They can be a victim and a criminal. Or a victim and just a pain in the arse.

StatisticallyChallenged · 16/03/2021 12:42

I can totally see Carole having somewhat exacting standards!

They may well need to rethink the setup, ensure clarity/reporting lines and so on. It certainly sounds like Meghan herself wasn't really clear about where she sat in terms of organisational structure.

Alsohuman · 16/03/2021 13:46

It certainly sounds like Meghan herself wasn't really clear about where she sat in terms of organisational structure

I think she was perfectly clear and obfuscating for an American audience.

DeRigueurMortis · 16/03/2021 13:46
  • Last week, in the lead up to Meghan and Harry’s eagerly anticipated Oprah interview, Palace sources were quoted as saying that the Palace was “prepared to retaliate with fresh disclosures about the couple’s behaviour if the monarchy is attacked”.

Great, so what next

External lawyers to probe bullying by other royals?
External lawyers to probe racism within RF?
External lawyers to probe whether there was disability discrimination in denying support for mental health?
External lawyers to problem Andrews behaviour and whether it broke public code of conduct (not criminal investigation, but did he bring us into disrepute type of stuff)?

Is this a vendetta or is RF finally going to be be subject to public accountability?*

I honestly don't understand how you can make some of the posts you have.

You insinuate there is a vendetta against M based on spurious allegations (you mentioned 5am emails in one post) yet fail to see any irony in doing similar to the RF by linking to many tabloid gossip stories that have little evidentiary basis.

Additionally you seem unwilling to accept that this enquiry is a good thing on a number of levels.

By independently reviewing Palace HR's response to accusations of bullying by "Principles" any findings and recommendations would apply at a policy and procedural level and thus cover any such instances concerning any member of the RF in the future.

In that sense it does cover alleged bullying by any Royal.

The reason (yet again) why M was the catalyst for this is the evidence that was supplied to and investigated by The Times - a reputable journalistic outlet.

The investigation will be private. The Palace has confirmed it will not make the findings public. How is that in keeping with the narrative that it's a smear campaign against M when they are NOT even investigating her nor will they release the outcome of the investigation?

You seem to want to argue both sides of the same coin when it suits your agenda.

It's ok to use "sources" close to M or the RF when they say what you want.

It's ok to cite as evidence gossip websites when they dig the dirt on anyone but M.

It's ok to throw in utterly spurious claims about why W&C's housekeeper left - even throwing Carole Middleton into the mix for good measure....

It just undermines the points you are trying to make and comes across as utterly over invested and sadly somewhat unhinged.

If you want to support M then frankly there's a whole load of legitimate arguments to express why rather than slinging mud at the RF and hoping some of it will stick with the lurkers or posters on here.

She's been treated appallingly by some sections of the press, been the subject of both overt and insidious racism and frankly whether she knew what she was "getting into" or not it's perfectly reasonable for her to say I'm not prepared to sacrifice my mental health living like this any more once she experienced the reality of it.

I'm glad they've walked away if thats what's it's taken for them to be happy. I don't mind them trading on their "ex-royalty" to make a living - security isn't cheap and I want them to be safe and secure and if Netflix deals will afford them finance independence and security - great.

That doesn't mean I think this interview was a good idea for them or the RF - quite the reverse and these allegations of bullying are a prime example of why.

I'll say again there's no conflict at all in expressing distaste for the RF on a number of matters and also being critical of some aspects of how H&M have behaved over their exit.

twelly · 16/03/2021 13:47

I think appointing an independent person is w good move - hopefully the palace can then draw a line under the matter

IrmaFayLear · 16/03/2021 14:38

@DeRigueurMortis - what’s the point? However many times it is suggested that some posters might be a little more even handed they refuse to answer.