Harry and Meghan what they’ll do next

[PelicanPie]

Let’s strive to keep on topic and not engage with posts designed to disrupt.

I think there is a lot of confusion over titles because of the choices HMQ's children have made.

To be clear:

• the children of her male children have the right to be styled Prince/Princess.

• the children of her female child do not.

• Prince Andrew decided to style B&E as Princess - a title they automatically inherited.

• Princess Anne, despite an offer from HMQ to "make" her children HRH declined the offer as did her then husband on their marriage to accept a title (unlike for example Antony Armstrong-Jones - later Lord Snowdon on his marriage to Princess Margaret).

• Edward and Sophie's children are HRH and technically Prince/Princess. Their parents have simply not chosen to style them as such - in the same way Camilla is not "just" the Duchess of Cornwall. She is Princess of Wales by virtue of her marriage but does not use that title for obvious reasons.

• Princess Margaret's children have inherited their titles not through their mother - even as a "blood royal". Their titles come from their father and HMQ's decision to appoint him lord snowdon. Had he not accepted that title they would be in the same position as Philip

and Zara whose father did not accept a title.

• as for Edward being a Count not a Duke there are a number of reasons. Firstly the number of Dukedoms available are now very rare. When H became DOS it was only one of two dukedoms left and the other (I can't remember which) had some controversy associated with it). The RF had to think ahead. Who knows when the next Dukedom might become available? Goodness knows Duke of York is a title now sullied...so E was promised DoE when his father died.

What I'm trying to clarify is that you can't confuse the titles and the choices iyswim.

I'm trying to decide what 'place' I'd like if I was a royal and could ask.

I've decided on 'Lordess of London'.

I like the sound of Duchess of Death

I promise to be stylish....

I would prefer in his shoes to just have my own title (surely there are plenty of dukedoms available?) and not be waiting for my dad to die, or to have my promotion associated with his death.

Well thats how the monarchy and aristocracy work. Death is the path to promotion

Shouldn't that be De'ath?

Whenever I see that surname, which fortunately is rarely, I always smile at that aprostophe being shoe-horned in.

Was theDukedom with scandal attached The Duke of Clarence? There was some kind if rumoured link to Jack the bRipper which would have made the tile not so attractive

While we're at it, why do some people get counties and some cities? Why isn't Andrew the Duke of Yorkshire, or Harry the Duke of Brighton?

Simply put history.

Brighton wasn't historically an "important" seat of power.

Yorkshire as an entity didn't exist.

Dukedoms are very old titles and don't reflect the U.K. as it is, rather as it was.

That's why they tend to reflect counties or cities that represented "seats of power" historically.

Take Edwards title - Wessex doesn't exist any more but it was historically a very important "kingdom" that was integrated into what became England.

That's my understanding anyway unless anyone can correct me.

Was theDukedom with scandal attached The Duke of Clarence? There was some kind if rumoured link to Jack the bRipper which would have made the tile not so attractive

Can't be sure but the title certainly rings a bell as it were.

Years ago I read about someone from a working class background who was getting a life peerage and was asked what name he wanted for his peerage. The royal side advising him said pick a name that refers to where you live. The man said well then I'll have to be Lord TopFlat.

Yes, it was Clarence.

York will survive. It's the oldest royal dukedom in England. By the way, New York was named for a Duke of York rather than the place.

Meant to say, some unlucky connotations to Duke of Clarence. I don't think there is any truth to the Ripper theories, however.

York will survive. It's the oldest royal dukedom in England.

I'm sure the inhabitants of York will sleep soundly tonight

Shouldn't that be De'ath?

Duchess of De'ath...

I'd live with that - pun intended

A few musings about titles.
Princess Anne has said; her children are not Royal; their grandmother just happens to be Queen.
So as far as a “blood Princess” is concerned; it’s not the blood which makes you Royal, but the title.

Also; Canada does not allow any of its citizens to accept a title; even a knighthood. Harry & Meghan would never have been allowed to make Canada their permanent home with their titles. ( Although this is now a moot point, as it would appear that the Sussexes are leaving).

I hope that the measured discussions on this particular thread feed into the future negotiations about H&M’s status.
I do wonder whether the constitutional experts who advise the RF have actually analysed the “what it means to be royal”.

Bagehot; I think he was a historian; warned “not to let daylight shine on the monarchy”. Unfortunately the whole institution is open to the glare of social media and as pp’s have pointed out; it is definitely a fudge.

Canadians can accept titles, it’s a resolution later adopted as a regulation, not an act of Parliament. Conrad Black challenged the regulation when he was appointed a Lord.

Canadians can use titles, but most would find it presumptuous and somewhat precious.

Citizens of the US can have titles, too, although there are limitations on accepting titles from foreign governments. The actor/director Christopher Guest, husband of Jamie Lee Curtis, is a US citizen by birth and Lord Haden-Guest by inheritance in the UK.

www.dunmowbroadcast.co.uk/news/lord-braybrooke-of-the-audley-end-estate-dies-aged-85-1-5052463

Audley End home of Lord Braybrooke

The tenth Baron, who succeeded his father in 1990 was Lord Lieutenant of Essex from 1992 to 2000.

Lord Braybrooke had eight daughters, seven of whom have survived him and no sons.

Because women cannot inherit the title, his heir will be his fifth cousin, Richard, Ralph Neville, who reaches his 40th birthday this month. However a woman will inherit the estate, a second cousin once removed.

Meanwhile, art historian Louise Newman, 56, the granddaughter of a male heir, receives the 6,000-acre Audley End estate in Essex.

Basically his daughters get nothing!

Who knows when the next Dukedom might become available

The can just make new ones. Not as prestigious as a historical one, but they can.

The Queen could have made Edward the first Duke of Wessex, but he wanted the historic title

For historic connections he could also have been Duke of Ross, Kendal, Avondale or Clarence even if Cambridge and Sussex were earmarked for William and Harry. They won’t run short of titles to give

Titles should now be given in the way Mountbatten’s Earldom was given. He only had daughters so it was created to pass to them and be passed on by them

Although stupidly they can only pass it on to male heirs so it gave with one hand and snatched straight back

The Earl is Wessec is not a historic title. Tom Stoppard made it up

Just a little side note you cannot change sex and get a title. Aristocratic title, lands and inheritance are exempt from the GRC and can happily ignore it. Amazingly they managed to safeguard male interests..... .

Some fascinating discussion here about the arcane laws of hereditary and non-hereditary titles and how the monarch can bend the rules - this is why I find the whole H and M story so compelling. Those who are in the club fully understand who should defer to to who, who goes first, who has first dibs on a particular grace and favour apartment or loan of which tiara. It’s no surprise M has found it hard to get her head round all this and explains why the RF traditionally prefers aristocratic incomers who know where they stand in the pecking order and don’t try to rock the boat. Comments such as I would prefer in his shoes to just have my own title ... and not be waiting for my dad to die, or to have my promotion associated with his death and spectacularly missing the point of heredity and also the random nature of the accident of birth nature of it illustrate this point perfectly. For M it feels like a choice - she chose to marry the Queen’s grandson, enjoy the trappings of a royal wedding, tried to choose which grace and favour palace she would live in (settling for former servants accommodation in the end as it turns out) - now she’s changed her mind and wants to opt out. There can be no opting out for Harry - because he never had any choice in the matter in the first place - he will always be the Queen’s grandson, then the King’s son and then the King’s brother (and even uncle - if he outlives William). And therein lies H&M’s dilemma.

Yes @InfiniteSheldon funny that they managed to safeguard male interests isn’t it.

This is thread fascinating

Thank you all

*This thread