Does anyone want a thread for people who are happy for Harry and Meghan? Thread 2

[DaveCoaches]

I wimped out of the other thread title I planned as I thought it might look goady.

But please let’s keep it as the reality-and-let's-avoid-idle-speculation-and-reliance-on-dodgy-sources thread (thanks Seneca!).

...before they state something as fact.

Annie, I meant that portraying women as rude and presumptuous was a pretty common way of trying to get them to shut up, just rang a bell! But I'm definitely not saying you're doing that, and will endeavour to keep avoiding toxicity.

Laurie: But that standard isn’t applied. Kate didn’t get pulled apart for spending nearly five times that of her (family’s) money. Yes, she’s higher in the hierarchy, but Meghan was also a senior and working royal. She spent considerably less. It’s yet another example of her being held to a different set of standards.

But you're missing the finer point - that Kate hasn't held herself up to be a feminist and a humanitarian as M has. I don't think anyone agrees with the extravagance of either of them. It's none of our business if spending someone else's money but comment is invited if your actions aren't aligned with your stated or implied beliefs. That's why M has attracted more criticism in the clothing respect - for being perceived as hypocritical to her principles and beliefs.

when it is possible there are things that happen behind closed doors none of us know about and aren't privy to observing

I knew you were going to say this in the face of there being no photographic evidence of bowing and curtsying to people of higher precedence but the same rank.

They are more likely to observe protocol in public than in private.

No one has said M won't curtsy to blood princesses Every - people, including me, have asked how she reconciled curtsying to her principles of being a feminist.

Look up any official document or statement on "order of precedence." Those are my sources. That and observation.

Laurie: All the royals present as humanitarians and a big part of their job is to support charity. No, their charity work is more incidental - they have to do something that benefits the country.

It's not just about charity work though - a lot of heads of charity are paid obscene amounts it could be said. I don't agree with it though.

I would criticise Kate vociferously if she had spent that on her engagement dress. It was obscene and I think with M being more tuned into humanitarian work than Kate (due to the work she did before the RF) I think she should have known better and thought about the optics. I think H could have steered her too if she was acting like a kid in a candy shop.

annie someone further up the thread did make this statement.

I agree that the curtsying is ridiculous for all of them. M didn't claim to be perfect. I find the financial extravagance on all their parts more annoying though.

Charles and both his sons turned up to the premiere of David Attenborough's series on saving the planet. With their combined carbon footprint, how hypocritical.

No one has said M won't curtsy to blood princesses Every - people, including me, have asked how she reconciled curtsying to her principles of being a feminist.

Maybe the same reason that I would stand if the president of the US or the governor of my state entered the room (even though I am of a different political persuasion). It's protocol for her to curtsy to the Queen as head of state. She doesn't have to curtsy to any other woman (except queens of other countries) so that is a moot point about the blood princesses.

Anyway, at the Edinburgh event, Harry asked to be call Harry - so all Duke/HRH title nonsense neatly avoided. We just need to get the rest of the royals to follow suit now and it will begin to look like a more modern monarchy. The queen is clinging onto the old traditions for all she is worth and it sucks that anyone should be expected to bow, curtsey or use inherited titles to anyone in this day and age.

Maybe the queen is clinging to traditions because she knows that without them her useless offspring would have no careers.

If we're going to bring Kate's wedding dress into the discussion Laurie then M's dress needs to be included too. Buttery is right - you're not comparing like for like. There's been no particular criticism over either wedding dress.

I think M was very badly advised over that engagement dress.

Maybe in the States or other cultures or in Hollywood people are impressed by shows of extravance. She should have been advised that being thrifty would have earned her more points with the British public.

Unless she was advised and didn't listen?

Out of interest, Annie, do you consider yourself to be a feminist? Something like the dress, I was appalled by (as I've said before) for the indecency of the price tag and for the terror I would feel if I ever had to wear something like that, I'd spill god knows what down it from nerves! Definitely agree it's obscene money, and not the best look for Meghan. But...

1. I don't think this then negates any other good she's done, or should be a reason for her to give up trying to help in any humanitarian way. Feminism is hard to define but I'm sure you'd be hard pressed to find someone who is the 100% ideal feminist. I'm glad for the good she's done, while acknowledging that she's not perfect, as none of us are.

1. It doesn't seem, from my understanding of feminism, that good to just keep using this one dress to bash an individual woman. Look at the system as a whole. It made me think, how the fuck can a dress cost that much? Where's the profit going to? Who else buys these dresses? What else do they buy? Because I think the massive global structural inequality is a much bigger deal and a bigger hurdle to equality than one woman's engagement dress. I haven't done anything about it though, I'm pretty flawed and hypocritical too, like Meghan, like loads of people really.

1. Fixating on the dress & getting further anti-Meghan seems to be led by the press. It makes them money/ gets them clicks but distracts from bigger problems.

Sorry for the long post, but you've brought this up a lot.

Anyway, at the Edinburgh event, Harry asked to be call Harry - so all Duke/HRH title nonsense neatly avoided. We just need to get the rest of the royals to follow suit now and it will begin to look like a more modern monarchy.

Totally agree.

Only selectively which seems only when it means she doesn't have to admit getting anything wrong.

Well, I'm not wrong about anything I've said on this thread, except for saying you quoted the Telegraph piece when it was another poster. So mea culpa for that.

Laurie: Do we have a statement from Meghan on her ‘humanitarian’ status? I'll have to check properly when I have more time. Had a quick look - I doubt those actual words (i.e. "I am a humanitarian") came out of her mouth, as it might sound a bit pretentious, but she's widely acknowledged as being one, has accepted an award under her philanthropic work, has never said she isn't one and I believe has indicated she would like to do things to make a difference to people. More so than Kate, who hasn't said or done anything of those things. Also H's interests do tend to lie on the humanitarian side as well so I thought they had that in common and that might have been one of the foundations for their relationship.

She has stated she's a feminist. So I think even under the guise of feminist £56k for a dress seems a bit obscene as she didn't earn the money to pay for it.

She has stated she's a feminist. So I think even under the guise of feminist £56k for a dress seems a bit obscene as she didn't earn the money to pay for it.

How do you know she didn't earn the money?

Berts - I have to agree.

Ok, I spent a few minutes googling to get this:

Kate's engagement dress £385
Meghan's engagement dress £56,000

Kate's wedding dress £250,000
Meghan's wedding dress £387,000

(CBA to copy all the links, but if you google you'll see for yourself..)

So on the big day dresses, spending for Meghan has been higher. We'd want to check on inflation etc. to judge that totally fairly, which I haven't done. However, it's worth noting that if you would expect the above to translate into blanket Meghan-bashing in the tabloids, you might be surprised by this from the Express in Oct last year:

www.express.co.uk/life-style/style/1179869/kate-middleton-meghan-markle-latest-news-clothes-cost-wardrobe-style

Encylco: When I lived in London I heard many a reference to "the Queen of England Really? I live here and never do apart from tourists or non-British people living here. Maybe I haven't noticed though.

It's all much of a muchness.

The Cambridges champion mental health while having access to the best medical services that money can buy. Most mentally ill people in the UK cannot access these kinds of services.

They're all taking us for a ride it's just that the Sussexes happen to the in the spotlight.