Is it awful to be considering a doodle..? First time dog owner

[AmpleLilacQuail]

Hi all, I’ve been thinking about getting my first dog for a few years and I’m now in a position to do so - very exciting.

Initially I was sucked into the cockapoo/cavapoo ‘hype’ but I went off them as I was worried about potential behavioural and health issues. I then had my heart set on a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel although I know they have their own health issues!

Anyway, now the time has come to get the dog, I’m back to considering a cockapoo.. is it terrible of me? I am open to other small/medium sized dogs too, if anyone has any suggestions?

The main driver behind this is that I live rurally and it’s much easier to travel an hour or two to a cockapoo pup, as it could be a 7 hour drive (each way!) for a CKCS.. which is just too far.

I check my local SSPCA weekly and I never see any dogs that would be suitable for me as a first time dog owner.

So why did I make this thread if I had already chosen to go for a cockapoo?

My point is that - I HADNT chosen a doodle, it was a consideration that I wanted thoughts on!! There’s nothing wrong with that! If I was so set on a cockapoo I’d have got one 4, almost 5 years ago when I started to think about getting a dog. But then I went off the doodle ‘breeds’ for a number of reasons. I said all that in my post. I’ve also said if I can’t find a dog/breeder that I’m happy with then I won’t get a dog!

Thanks @Lifeisntnotunfair . Sorry, but I was not aware of this about Border Terriers. I'll try to be more careful in future and do my research into health of specific breeds before recommending.
But I don't think I was alone in suggesting that breed, it does seem to be a popular one on these threads.

That’s okay! I don’t think it’s very commonly known, I only know of this because I know a little boy who’s got it.
Border terriers are popular, and for good reason, they are excessively cute and hardy little things.

@Lifeisntnotunfair I find the same thing with Goldies.

People recommend them and have no idea of not only the personality traits that they can have which are really difficult to manage in such a large dog including resource guarding, but also the increasing health issues including; (A) heart defects, resulting in a quick death at a v. young age for the dog, (B) epilepsy which is incredibly expensive and quite traumatic for owners and, (C) GVD, which results in a a rather agonising death for the dog.

An important lesson for me @Lifeisntnotunfair @LandSharksAnonymous
Thanks both.

It’s one of those things isn’t it?

When I saw those crosses of poodles with your breed, I thought ‘surely not a good idea?!‘ but it’s only when you went into detail about your breed that I really ‘got it.’ People know their ‘breed inside out’ if they only have that breed so they really know how bad crosses or a bad pedigree can be - both for temperament or health.

I always thought GSDs were nice, but I hadn’t ever realised they’re prone to GVD as well until recently!

If you are happy to put in the work and cope with a very active dog till it comes out of puppyhood- about 2.5 - and would like to support a fantastic but declining breed how about a bearded collie (aka Highland colllie)?

Just want to also add that as long as you have prepared the car properly for the journey home and will make stops if necessary then a long, even very long car journey to the forever home is, in my view absolutely fine and necessary.

By prepared the car properly I mean have prepped maybe a couple of options for the puppy - either a boot crate (ideally a crash tested one) or a square basket type thing with blankets that goes on the seat and an attachment to the dog with the seatbelt (preferably attaches to a harness not collar just in case).

You will have to have decided how you want to travel in the car with your dog for its life anyway, so any of these things are an investment in any case.

Basically, don't just pop the puppy on someone's lap and head off!

Just to follow up my earlier post on beardies, and seeing you’re in Scotland, there’s a bearded collie club of Scotland and also active Facebook pages like Scottish beardie owners, in case you wanted to check out the breed. They aren’t like border collies - still clever and active but more suited to non working environments (apart from those from working lines that is).

Honestly, if I was looking to choose a puppy I would not be overly influenced by the comments on here.

It is most definitely not 'awful', to consider buying a doodle/mixed breed and I am not ashamed for actively seeking to buy a Cavachon 12 years ago and recently a Cavapoo. My criteria were medium sized, gentle natured, intelligent, active, able to enjoy long walks, or shorter spells of exercise, good with children. I have not been disappointed.

Doodle/mixed breed popularity has driven commercial practices which in the case of puppy farming are abhorrent, but these hybrids are popular for a reason - they make excellent family pets and if you are looking for a pup with the characteristics of the Cavalier King Charles spaniel mitigating some of the health issues, then do consider a Cavapoo or Cavachon.

Use your judgement and and instincts when purchasing, avoiding puppy farm red flags and there's no reason why you should not have a lovely puppy.

There is a lot of bias and over thinking on this thread. I would consider speaking to your local vet for a more objective perspective.

I agree. As a seasoned dog owner I find the Mumsnet dog area too judgemental by far. A lot of people on here who think it’s their way or the highway. Quite strange really.

@Fleetheart @Daisydoodlepoo

None of the posters who have been critical about these designers mongrels have said 'it's our way or the highway.' What we have said is that doodles are inherently flawed. They tend to have more health issues, as the best studs/dams are not being used, and they also seem to have more behavioural issues - as they are not bred correctly and in line with basic practice.

Twice in 24 hours two posters linked 'excellent doodle breeders' and all five of the breeders linked were puppy farmers. One had sixteen breeding bitches. The Cockerpoo Club of GB...their recommended breeders? First six are puppy farmers. I've been saying it for months, but if someone can point me to a good doodle breeder - with generational health testing, who doesn't overbreed, who doesn't have more than one breeding bitch and who genuinely knows what they are doing and care for their dogs, I would be delighted. So far, no one has.

Every breeder linked that is a 'doodle' on mumsnet over the last 6 months that I have seen has, without fail, been a puppy farmer. Yes, we've had less than ideal 'pedigree' breeders as well - but we've also had some excellent breeders be linked.

Perhaps that is a coincidence. More than likely it's not though - and it's endemic of doodle breeding. And, ultimately, most of the people who get these designer mongrels just want a poodle which are a nicer, more robust, dog anyway. 😀

With respect, if I had wanted a poodle I would have bought one. I wanted a Cavachon (now 12, no health issues except having some teeth extracted) and a Cavapoo puppy purchased a few months ago who is a delight. I did my due diligence, avoided puppy farms and both are much loved family members.

@Daisydoodlepoo and what was it about the poodle you didn't like? Because you cannot breed out generations of breed temperament nor build/proportions, so whatever it was you didn't like...there was a very high chance you would get it. The fact you apparently didn't (whatever it was you have against poodles) was luck, nothing more or less.

But I am very glad you bought from a breeder with fully health tested dam/sire, with generational health testing and who doesn't breed more than two litters, who doesn't have more than one breeding bitch and who doesn't dump their dogs when they can't be bred from and who carefully checks the temperament of both dogs before they bred. Brilliant to hear 👌

We have a doodle (not a cockerpoo) and you can’t fault her temperamentally. Shes very quick to learn, she’s got a very soft mouth, and she loves playing fetch. I didn’t want a straight poodle for a few reasons - they can be too bonded to one owner, and that could be a problem because I spend more time with the dog than anyone else; they are quite prone to separation anxiety again a potential problem because I’m around most of the time but did want the the option to leave the dog at home while I run to the shops or go for lunch; they can have a problem with resource guarding; and perhaps mostly because 3 members of my family have had 5 of them over the years and their dogs were (barring one) yappy and reactive and not keen on children. I would probably have gone for a show golden retriever all things being even, but size wise we really needed something smaller.

We did take a lot of time and effort to find a breeder who was doing it (in my opinion) right. Mum was genuinely a family dog, who had been trained up as a therapy dog who visits care homes. The dad was also a therapy dog. I liked that she was breeding for temperament rather than coat colour or “breed ideals”. Both of the dogs were extensively health tested for the diseases common to the breeds involved in their heritage, and had excellent scores. We got all the paperwork on that. The pups were raised in the home, and the breeder went to a lot of effort with early socialisation, and a bit of early training (they were already peeing and pooing outside when they came home at 8 week’s, so we never had a toilet accident in the house). She’d exposed them to also sorts of noises, and she’s been on the end of the phone whenever I’ve needed help or advice.

Is the dog perfect? Well, she’s not too bad now we’re getting through the shark stage! She’s a really loving dog, nice and calm. She is also great with fetch/ retrieving - given she’s got it from both sides that’s maybe not a surprise. She’s really people focussed, and though she definitely has a favourite (me, because she knows who’s got control of the kibble!) she seems to love all the family, and visitors too.

I definitely get a lot of raised eyebrows from dog people - and trainers are pretty snooty about doodles generally I think, so we had raised eyebrows on week one of puppy school but she’s doing really well, walks nicely on the lead, and has picked up all the obedience training nicely.

Sadly friends of ours got a pedigree dog a couple of weeks after ours came home, and that dog has sadly since died as a result of a genetic abnormality that couldn’t have been predicted. So, it’s not just crossbreeds that are problematic.

But having said all of that, it is a bit of a roll of the dice with any puppy, isn’t it? And what you do with them yourself, in terms of training and socialisation is really key too. I think you can find bad breeders of any dog - and the more popular they are, the more you see that I think.

Thank you, as I said, I did my research and am comfortable with my decisions. I have nothing against poodles. I wanted a Cavalier King Charles hybrid.

In my experience as both a dog groomer and owner cavaliers are the sweetest dogs, they love their walks but also happy to chill out so if you are looking for high energy and long walks they might not be the best choice. Yes they come with health issues but my last one lived to be 16

Cockerpoos can have a bad rep but to be honest I have met some lovely ones. All I can say is if a breeder tells you they don't need grooming and have an easy coat to look after that is bs. You need to get them to the groomers for a puppy intro 2 wks after their vaccinations and groomed every 6 weeks or you can end up with a matted mess which the groomer then has to shave off.

If you want high energy like 0 to a million miles an hour a working cocker will do it ha ha

Whatever you choose research the breed and the breeder. Go with your gut, if the breeder is interested in you, your home and lifestyle don't be offended thats actually a good sign. Ask loads of questions and travel if you have to,

@AmpleLilacQuailyou sound just like me! We have been thinking about getting a dog / puppy for years now and have only previously owned cats. I have spent the summer researching and hunting for a puppy from a reputable breeder and there’s so much to think about and so much conflicting advice that it all becomes really scary!

I was going down the doodle route until I came on here and have been converted. I know lots of lovely cockapoos and would have happily gone down that route until I found a miniature poodle breeder on Kennel Club that ticked all the boxes and now it all feels right.

The breeder shows her dogs at the top level and they are her absolutely world and pets for life. She has bred to better the breed and to continue the show line. She breeds once a year and the dogs are fully health tested above and beyond kennel club requirements.

We have now met the puppies and moving to the next stage to secure one. It still feels terrifying but I do feel reassured that they have come from a good place and the breeder wants the absolute best for the puppies going forward and will be on hand for support for as long as we need it.

I understand about making long car trips with a dog. Once our rescue, small/medium, cross/breed gorgeous girl had settled down with us, we travelled - 7 months later, in the summer - from Somerset to the Highlands, however we broke the journey up twice, by staying in travel lodges, there and on the way back. When we got there we camped, she loved the whole process, but she insisted that we all went to bed - well to our blow up double mattress and double sleeping bag - at almost 8.00pm on the dot, probably because it was getting chilly by then! We then made the same stops on the way home. (By the way, she was not a designer cross/breed; according to her vet, she was a Jack Russel, crossed with something a little larger that a Jack Russel, but probably still a terrior type).

Sometime after our sweetest girl had to be put to sleep, we got a male Labrador puppy, he was 12 weeks old, we had met his Mum and Dad and some of his siblings in his amateur breeders house. The breeder had registered him with the kennel club, and their vet had done all the necessary labrador health checks. He also came with a months insurance, and a supply of the dry food they had been given him ("Oscar' I believe). He also trembled all the way home, but didn't make any sounds. Within a couple of days he was jumping small gaps between family members knees, and nipping his human families ear lobes and noses, which was delightful, but we gave a little sharp squeal, and said a firm no, and put him down for a couple of minutes! Once he grew out of that he never nipped anyone again. I can't actually remember him ever growling either.

I don't want to be argumentative, or annoy you, but I probably will when a ask as gently as possible, how do you know that your puppy didn't suffer at all on that first trip? She was in a crate at the back of the car, so presumably you couldn't see her, so you can't be sure that she was actually asleep, and not scared? Also, what is the likelihood that a small puppy being taken away from it's Mum and siblings, and the only home it had known, by people that it might not have even remembered from their last visit, would be at least nervous, and maybe very unhappy?

If you do reply to this @CoubousAndTourmalet I will hopefully get to read your reply, but I probably won't reply again, as I don't want this to turn into an ongoing discussion on @AmpleLilacQuail's thread. I certainly have no intention of being rude, so please don't take me as being so. Also, and possibly unfortunately, I am old enough to know that any arguments you or @LandsharksAnonymous make, will not change my mind, as I have had a great many years to hear and think about lots of different peoples' thoughts and beliefs. I am not impressed by how much time and distance someone travels to get their puppy, if it is much more than an hour, or an hour and a half at a pinch. Letting a very young puppy, who won't have had all of their vaccinations yet, outside at motorway services, or wherever, is definitely not a good idea either.

I am very impressed with the OP for wanting to garner as much information as possible before making her choice about which dog is right for her, and I think that including the views of people who love dogs, through Mumsnet, was a very good idea. It will have definitely given her food for thought, but I do hope that she hasn't been put off the idea completely, and that whilst taking in the pros and cons that other people have helped her think about, I do hope that she won't let her gut instinct about which dog is right for her, be totally extinguished by other people, especially those who might have ulterior motives for not liking certain other breeds.

You can get everything you’ve always wanted in a dog by getting a poodle. I have friends with cockapoos and every single one of them is trouble. My miniature poodle is no trouble at all. Everyone thinks she’s a cockapoo but better behaved.

Good post; well written.

The only point I would make is that 8 weeks is in my opinion too young. I picked up my first pup at 10 weeks and the second one at 12 with a full set of vaccinations. You can travel longer with a 12 weeks pup. I did 3.5 hours with her.

Seeing how hard it is to get another one from a good breeder, I would travel longer if needed but not with an 8 weeks old.

@PlayingDevilsAdvocateisinteresting it depends on the breed and how keen you are for a good breeder. Lots of people live rurally and the 'best' breeders nearby for their breed are puppy farmers or one that does not fully health tests...so by your argument, if they want a particular breed, and the only breeder nearby is a puppy farmer or one who doesn't health test their dogs, they should get the defective puppy or support the puppy farmer?

An eight week old Golden Retriever puppy, as mine frequently evidence, can hold it's bladder for 5/6 hours easily. Not all 8 week old dogs are equal.

And lots of vets these days say you can take puppies outside for a few minutes pre-second vaccinations. Whether or not I, personally, agree with it is another thing. But if a vet says you can if the biting is too bad (which people claim has been said to them - look through recent posts about it on MN) then I hardly think a quick tiddle in a service station will kill the puppy.

But as you said, your mind won't be changed...And nor will mine. I'd rather someone put time and effort into finding a well-bred dog from fully health tested (ideally generational tbh) parents, than anyone went around supporting bad breeding practices and contributing to animal cruelty because it's more convenient to get the local puppy farm puppy.

@PlayingDevilsAdvocateisinteresting
Unless you're a first time owner with no dog experience it is pretty easy to tell a stressed puppy from a calm one.

We have travelled with all our pups, I don't owe you an explanation, but I don't believe I ever said the crate was in the boot. We have a large estate, half the back seat is folded down so the crate can be positioned beside a rear passenger and pup can be interacted with. Nor did I say pup was ever out of the crate during the journey. I never crate puppies at home, they are all free range but we have a travel crate that is big enough for a large non tip water bowl and a couple of puppy pads. So puppies are not out of the crate until we arrive home when we lift them out and carry them into the back garden. They've all been calm, happy pups.

Your argument about a pup being taken away from mother and siblings applies to 99.9% of puppies, the only exceptions being where the breeder keeps one, so it holds no water, regardless of distance involved.

I would suggest that you save your questions for those dog owners adopting the imports flooding in from Spain and Eastern Europe, if any of your concerns about pups travelling long distances are genuine and it isn't just the usual mn reverse snobbery. Which I strongly suspect it is.

I do not frankly care if you are "impressed" by me or @LandSharksAnonymous . Both of us are people with a lifetime of dog experience and will stand by what we say that a well bred, well socialised puppy should be able to cope with a few hours of travel without being a quivering wreck. You can be "impressed" with the OP but if her and your priority is getting a pup close to home, you are taking a far greater risk than I would ever be willing to be.

@ACavalierDream I think you are in the minority there. The vast majority of puppies go to their new homes at 8 weeks old.