Is it awful to be considering a doodle..? First time dog owner

[AmpleLilacQuail]

Hi all, I’ve been thinking about getting my first dog for a few years and I’m now in a position to do so - very exciting.

Initially I was sucked into the cockapoo/cavapoo ‘hype’ but I went off them as I was worried about potential behavioural and health issues. I then had my heart set on a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel although I know they have their own health issues!

Anyway, now the time has come to get the dog, I’m back to considering a cockapoo.. is it terrible of me? I am open to other small/medium sized dogs too, if anyone has any suggestions?

The main driver behind this is that I live rurally and it’s much easier to travel an hour or two to a cockapoo pup, as it could be a 7 hour drive (each way!) for a CKCS.. which is just too far.

I check my local SSPCA weekly and I never see any dogs that would be suitable for me as a first time dog owner.

i would have a standard poodle over any dog any day.
sadly we don’t have one.
we have a Weimaraner instead.
DD1 & I looked after a poodle about six months before we decided as a family we’d go for a weim because that was the breed that has always been in my family.
DD2 and DH unfortunately couldn’t get past the old image of a poodle groomed within an inch of their lives.

but in my (limited) experience of being around poodles, they are incredibly intelligent without the Velcro mania associated with other breeds ( yes Rafa, I’m looking at you!!).

why the f**k you would want to mess with the breed is crazy!!

if ever we were to get another dog it would definitely be a poodle.

Back in the day greyhounds were only for the aristocracy and some more common people wanted a coursing dog. So they crossed greyhound with terriers and I believe Italian greyhounds too but I stand corrected because I can’t believe there were many of them in England back then. Whippets were created as a poor man’s greyhound to hunt small fluffy prey (rabbit, hare and small deers) for food usually illegally and were also used for street coursing in Yorkshire and the east end of London. Because they were valuable for gambling they were often better fed than children and slept with them to keep both warm. This probably explains why they are such a good family dogs. I can only assume that the dogs they used for whippet were originally very healthy hence whippets are sort of fine now (sort of because they are falling prey to popularity).

Well you’re probably going to hate it but it was a home breeder, second litter. The first litter probably three years earlier & they kept one puppy. Obviously I’ve got no idea if they bred again, but had no plans to when contacted a couple of years later (for someone I knew).

possibly you can’t find the perfect mate but they did a pretty good job. Everyone talks about what a calm and gentle dog he is, dog sitter, groomer etc. The only real behavioural issue is that if one of kids leaves the side gate open, he’ll bark at dogs going past the front fence. No problem if they’re both on the same side of the fence.

The neighbours have a poodle and two smaller dogs, they go mental when we walk past and one of the smaller dogs is very aggressive. This one also bit a courier driver, and they’ve had council complaints. All three are pure bred.

I get what you are saying about breeders - they can produce some dogs with real issues, but this isn’t limited to cavapoos. But if you’re careful and do your homework, you can get a great dog.

I have a Bedlington, and she's the easiest dog I've ever owned. She's even easier than my border terrier!

I've got a crossbreed, and will freely admit that I would never do it again. We were very naive at the time and definitely didn't do enough research. He came from gundog breeders, and I also now think that when we told them he would be going to a pet home rather than working, they probably shouldn't have let us have him. But there we go

I absolutely love him to bits, but he has been extremely hard work and has all the worst traits of both breeds. He also has a lot of health issues, and costs us £250 a month in insurance and medication. If we'd gone for a breed from health tested parents, the likelihood is that he wouldn't have the issues

If I knew then what I do now, I would have just gone for one breed as at least then you have a better chance of knowing what you're getting

We’ve got a beddy whippet and he’s the same - easiest dog ever.

Full beddy or border terrier are on my shortlist but DH not keen on getting another.

I have two lovely cross breeds; a black and white Cavachon girl coming up to 12 now, still super lively, no health issues during entire life and a five month old Cavapoo girl. Both have super temperaments, playful, intelligent and were easy to train. I love the Cavalier King Charles but they tend redevelop heart issues by ages 5 so from experience am a massive cross breed fan. Just ensure your breeder has checked parents for any genetic conditions associated with the parents.

Yet I bet you can’t name the health tests the parents had, I bet you don’t know the inbreeding score for your dog and I bet you paid more than I paid for a KC reg poodle from fully health tested parents.

People don’t hate the dogs, they hate the breeders. There is NO SUCH THING as an ethical doodle breeder. It’s done to make money and that it and they market their cute puppies to people who don’t realise that they look like poodles not shaved into a poodle cut, so why not just get a poodle! Even the original labradoodle creator says it’s his biggest regret in life.

I agree to some extent @BarkItOff. I was naive when we got our cockapoo and was only worried about not buying from a puppy farm, which we didn't. However, we will probably get a poodle next time.

That said, our cockapoo is wonderful, not at all neurotic, can be left for a few hours, is well trained and we don't regret getting him at all. If he didn't have a high prey drive he'd be perfect!

There are loads of lovely crossbreed dogs and not all have health or behavioural issues, you can get lucky. The dogs themselves are not the issue, it’s the breeders.

Sadly the doodle craze has allowed these backyard breeders to jump on it and people get blinded by cute puppies and don’t consider the ethics behind it.

These breeders know exactly what to say to convince people they are the exception, some do a couple of cheap basic DNA tests to show that their dogs are healthy (while ignoring the more expensive tests like hip scoring and yearly eye exams) and unless you know what you are looking for it’s easy to fall for.

@BarkItOff absolutely right. DNA tests alone are as cheap as chips and basically worthless. Vet “health checks” on new puppies the same.

For every cross from a purebred dog you should be thoroughly checking both parents for mechanical/ physiological/ developmental conditions such as elbow and hip dysplasia where relevant, heart murmurs or conditions, syringomelia, luxating patella, eye disorders, etc, and then scoring and EBVing for common conditions that are partially heritable.

You’d also want to know about coefficients of inbreeding. It’s not the case that crosses are always genetically more ‘diverse’, particularly if the breeders have both sire and dam and it isn’t a first generation breeding.

I can’t help thinking that if every doodle owner had just got a poodle instead everyone would be on this post saying don’t get a poodle. They’re all puppy farmed. 🤷‍♀️ Surely if any pure breed became crazily popular (like doodles) unscrupulous breeders would jump in on the craze and lots of people would have non health tested poodles instead of doodles!

It’s true there are plenty of non-health- tested pedigree dogs for sale via the Kennel Club website. if you go on eg Pets 4 Homes, even if you search only KC reg litters, then you’ll find a stack of dodgy breeders.

The difference is that if you want well bred pedigree dogs you can very easily find them. And that’s remained the case for eg Labs and Goldens and all the most popular breeds.

If you want a well bred cross, then good luck to you, you’ll need it. You’re not going to see detailed health reports and checks in the vast majority of cases.

Whatever dog is currently in fashion, you’ll find loads of shitty breeders peddling their wares. At least with pedigrees there will be a breed club somewhere, knowledgeable people and those who have had the same sort of dogs for generations. There are some safeguards, as opposed to none at all.

Well yes, and we’ve seen it recently with dachshunds, pugs and other brachycephalics where their popularity has led to for profit bulk breeding/backyard breeders and without the proper health tests the breeds have descended into a hot mess of issues.

thing with doodles though is it’s far easier to farm cross breeds. You only need one poodle stud, a load of bitches of various breeds and you can churn out everything from a labradoodle to a chipoo.

if you’re breeding pedigrees you need one of each parent so you’re doubling the amount of dogs you need. You won’t get a slick website for a breeder that only has one or two pedigrees.

add to the fact that crosses are outside KC regulated breeding and can’t be KC registered. Yes it’s not a guarantee, but if your pup is KC registered it’s a start at least that the breeder hasn’t bred one bitch 20 times to her own brother- you can’t register more than so many litters from each bitch, and it’s easy to check COI.

so pedigrees are harder to farm and not regulated. A pedigree it’s easier to find a good breeder, and at least you can start with KC and champ dogs etc.

this is a popular and dare I say it I’ve seen it “recommended” quite often in a “I got my doodle from there and he’s a lovely dog”. these have 300 breeding bitches.

Realistically, there are no guarantees around temperament, long term health or whatever general expectations you may have when buying any puppy whether pure bred pedigree or otherwise. It is more a question of mitigating the risks as far as possible through research before purchasing and most importantly trusting your instincts when visiting the pups.

I recently purchased my Cavapoo via Pets4Homes from a litter raised in a family environment a few miles away in Cheshire so we were able to visit more than once and interact with the pups and mum. The owner asked us lots of questions about our circumstances and it was clear they wanted the pups to go to loving, stable homes. This was the second litter, same sire, so we were also able to speak with the owners of her full siblings.

My puppy was relatively expensive but she came with evidence of extensive health checks, and had been well socialised from birth which makes all the difference. Cavapoos are popular for a reason - caveat emptor but there are ethical breeders out there!

Ps I should have added five months on, she is an absolute delight. Easy to train, super friendly/confident with other dogs, children and everyone she meets. The only thing to consider is that Cavapoos love to be around people, so households where they are left for several hours per day would not work.

I just want to add a caveat to what @Testerical said in case anyone is trying to do the right thing but wondering why it's not working out for them:

"[The difference is that if you want well bred pedigree dogs you can very easily find them.]
caveat:
but puppies might not be immediately available and you might have to wait for a planned litter later that year or something

What are the chances of a breeder being near your location, who has done all the tests and has proof/certificates, has not over bred the bitch and just so happens to have puppies available at the exact time that you searched....I'm not saying it's impossible just unlikely.

I completely agree with your post. It is very difficult to get a dog from a show breeder and you need to jump through several hoops. I imagine it would depend on the breed.

There are two breeds I am considering. For the first one I have done quite a lot of digging. On the club website, all there is an email to a puppy coordinator. 3 emails later no reply (over the span of 1 year). Not giving up, I have got through to a couple of people who run the club (via internet sleuthing and cross referring from show results) who have been lovely and very helpful in telling me what not to do but they do not breed themselves anymore. So all I could do is leave my details and hope they hear of something and remember me. I have had some luck on the Facebook page of the club and it has become apparent that to get further I need to go to dog shows. I am happy to do that but I am self employed and can afford a night away in a hotel and 2 days away from my children, let alone hours of driving. Mind, not to see a pup but in the hope to be considered. Not many people can do that. I have been advised that for the most sought after breeds, the puppies are gone before the club even hears about them.

This is for one breed only, times that by however many breeds you are after.

The second breed I have done less digging on. But when I found the affix of the people in the club (again not straightforward) and cross checked them against KC, the inbreeding coefficient for some of them is of the charts, some 20%. And those are on committee of the club! So who to trust?

Finally, I do not want to breed. So why would one of those breeders give me one their prize pooches when they know I won't continue the line?

So I can see why someone would throw in the towel and go for a commercial breeder.

I imagine it is very difficult to be a breeder that would be approved of on Mumsnet. Probably the show breeders are trying to exaggerate features of the breed which may not be so healthy. You’re not meant to breed your own pet as a one off. If you plan to breed a bit more than that, then you are a commercial breeder or a puppy farmer and that’s no good.

I hardly dare say it, but we have just had a litter of Puppies from our pet. We had the health checks done before hand for our girl. We made sure stud dog had health checks and looked for a low inbreeding coefficient.

The puppies grew up amongst the family with good veterinary care in the background if needed. It’s been a really lovely experience for us all and we have kept one of the puppies. We are tempted to do it again one day maybe in three or four years time. All our puppies found good homes very quickly just via word-of-mouth. I am sure some people will think it was a terrible thing to do but if there were no breeders there would be no dogs. Look at the criticism the Prince and Princess of Wales got when their dog had a litter of puppies.

Assuming that I am a responsible breeder, if such a thing exists, then it was very difficult to get a puppy from me unless you knew me already. We hardly mentioned the litter outside of close WhatsApp groups and private Facebook - just to say they were here but had at least three more homes than Puppies by five weeks.

We knew the breeder of our dog, which is how we got to have one of their puppies.

I imagine if you want a puppy, it is really difficult to find a breeder with available puppies in any sort of reasonable time frame. Someone I know was on a waiting list for three years but does now have a lovely puppy from the breeder she was hoping for.

The experience of the official breed club routes being very closed and secret-handshake esque is something I have heard about before 🙁

It's so tricky because clearly breeders are not going to plaster ads for puppies too openly or give inform out too freely because..well.. dog theft is a thing. I'm not a breeder but I would be so worried about someone connecting dots and working out the address to steal the litter, for the pups to end up god knows where.

But at the same time, its frustrating if breed club reps are just not responsive or you're expected to spend ages going to events to maybe hopefully make a contact, who might maybe hopefully put you in touch with someone who might maybe hopefully breed their bitch one day.

Out of pure nosiness I’d love to know what breed you’re having to jump through so many hoops to get a puppy! Is it one of the at risk breeds?

I went though the breed club. Spoke to the secretary. Went to a rally day and she introduced me to a couple of breeders.

I don’t think this is the ‘norm’ for more common breeds.

We have a poodle.

I went on champdogs, searched for breeders in my area that did all the recommended health tests. Contacted a few breeders to see who had litters planned that year and went on the waitlist of the one we liked. 7 months later we reserved a puppy.

I think it helps to be slightly open minded to age of dog.

i knew what I wanted. I’d had this breed as a kid, found a book in the library one day with complete history of UK breeding in an appendix. Found my own dog, traced the lines and become familiar with the breeders, dogs, and patterns of breeding.

fast forward 30 years and time came to wanting my own dog. Google, champ dogs, lots of research later I had a list of breeders that had continued with the lines of my old dog. It’s not a fashionable breed (unless you doodle it 🙄) so every breeder I found was a show breeder - I found they generally worked together so would have a litter when a couple of them needed a new pup to show as they retired older dogs.

sent a lot of emails asking to go on the waiting list, explaining my history with the breed. Most of them knew the breeder of my old dog, recently retired :).

I got lucky. One had a dog that they had bred to show, only to find he hated the show ring. If I would take a 1 year old rather than wait for a puppy, if they assessed me as suitable they were willing to consider a pet home as they thought he’d be happier.

i fired back with a crap load of questions about health, genetic scoring, mum etc. a proper tldr email 😂. They actually found that a positive as it demonstrated I knew what I was talking about.

few weeks later and he was home with us and settled in straight away. Much prefers 1:1 home and scrabbling around in the dirt. I can see why his personality didn’t suit showing 😂

Finally, I do not want to breed. So why would one of those breeders give me one their prize pooches when they know I won't continue the line?

to address this, most good breeders will put a restriction that you can’t breed without their permission. God knows how it’s policed, but it’s usual. Presumably they want to keep control of their lines and not have a load of badly bred dogs out there that links back to them.
So that wouldn’t stop you getting a pup. I specifically told mine I would get him neutered asap.

How about an Australian labradoodle? There’s an ethical breeder in the Highlands.