Our Cosmic Autumn Rebellion (Adolescent Support Group)

[MonCoubousMonTourmalet]

Okay folks, let's head into late summer/autumn.

@SpanielsGalore Totally – people never believe me when I say how many spaniels I know that only go out once a day for half an hour, and sometimes not at all. She is going to be beside herself on her first walk and I can’t wait to see her gallop again. We do have a big garden but I suspect it’s getting a bit sterile for her.

Poor P, a year is extraordinary – and here’s me moaning about ten days!

@Bupster Can’t agree more with what you say about focus and slip leads. I definitely see the value in them if used properly, especially with working dogs, but if pupsy had a problem with focus I wouldn’t be jumping straight to ‘slip lead’. For me it can be the answer to a question, but I’m not sure it’s that one.

@Flowerfusion Sorry to read of your dog's struggles. At 7 months of age, she could be entering the second fear stage. However, becoming reactive to noise was the first sign that my 9 month old sprocker was poorly. That coupled with her reacting when the vet pressed her stomach makes me wonder if there is something the matter. Is she eating and toileting normally? What pain meds is she on and for how long? I think I read a three week pain trial is recommended these days. I hope it helps her.
The behaviourist looks to be a good one. Or at least I haven't managed to find anything negative about them yet.

Definitely agree that you want a bit of spirit.

When we picked up little pup, one of the breeder's dogs (actual older pup's litter mate) was trying to nosy in the bag being handed over that had some food, a toy etc. in. She was asked to lay down and being a reasonably well trained dog she did as she was told. Then proceeded to commando crawl over to me, as clearly that wasn't technically braking the down position 😁

With both gundog trainers we've seen, you'd be asked to leave the class if seen lead popping, scruffing dogs etc. I know my older one wouldn't respond to that at all, it would totally break any sort of relationship we have. I once accidentally splashed some water on her filling up a bowl and she's never trusted me with a water bottle again!

Thanks all, I really do appreciate everyone taking the time to give advice! (Especially @YouCouldSayImADreamer delurking to share your experience). I am going to re-think what the trainer has recommended. She really isn't the hardcore Spaniel Man type at all but I understand what everyone is saying, so I will ask her what other options I have.

I have consistently used the negative marker word from day 1 and it just doesn't seem to be enough, but obviously I don't want to cause him pain or discomfort in the quest for obedience. But then when we are at training, I can't just allow him to spend the whole hour pulling me about on the field because he wants to sniff and eat rabbit shit and do as he pleases. I don't know what the answer is really.

He is just a pet and I am likely never going to work him, but I do have very high expectations of what he could achieve since he has lots of red in his lineage. I feel like I am doing him a disservice otherwise. But maybe I am simply not the right person to be able to achieve that with him. I feel like I am letting him down in the grand scheme of things, which is silly because he is a very happy and very loved dog. I just want the best for him.

@brushingboots ugh I am sorry to hear you've been having more paw trouble!! 10 minutes on the lead is so rubbish for you, but I am glad to hear she is coping well without her usual walks. She truly is an angel sent from heaven!

@tizwozliz Loving the commando crawl. 😂😂 The water splash shows how quickly dogs can make negative associations. Poor girl.

@brushingboots P had her first operation in November. We did three months of crate rest and gradually increasing lead walks. She had about two week's of off lead runs and then started limping. Had a second operation to remove the pins in February. Same recovery period. Limped again in July. More x-rays and scans (tendinitis and arthritis) and on lead walks. So with brief periods of normailty, it was a full year before she could stand with out sticking her leg out to the side.

Ahhh @YorkshireFelix you are not letting him down at all. There do have to be consequences for him pissing around, I agree.

I’m just wondering what my trainer would say if I had this issue and I think she’d say: think about the sequence. Where is the problem occurring – are you asking too much of him? Do you need to break it down further? A bit like when they won’t bring something back, what part of that sequence is broken? Is it the picking up, or the recall or the delivery? So in your class, what is it that he is actually struggling with – engaging with you, sitting nicely waiting, being around other dogs, the environment etc? I wonder if that might help you to think of what to do rather than just seeing ‘he’s being a pain’. Then perhaps you can work on that tiny thing in isolation and then build it up until you have the whole sequence. Am probs talking out of my arse here but just a thought <3

Have you thought more about sending him up to Tasha for a little holiday? I’m not suggesting you need to but it might help if it’s doable. If I knew I wasn’t going to miss pupsy to death I’d absolutely do it as I’m sure that she’d come home a different dog and I’d know how to deal with the issues I’ve accidentally created. I am so consistently impressed by her dogs and by what I see of her client dogs.

And yes, thank god for pupsy tbh. You know how sad she will be to be missing out and right now she’s just chilling in the sun, totally unfussed. I’m so proud.

@YorkshireFelix What's V like on a walk? Are you having problems with him outside of the training classes? I know he bogged off a week or so ago, but is that a regular thing? K will disappear for a minute or two, but always comes back and I know it's a phase she'll grow out of.
Please don't feel you are letting V down. I understand, as my pair both have a lot of red in their pedigree and I think would do well if 'properly' trained. But then if they had been kept by their breeder, they would probably be spending 23 hours a day in kennels and only coming out for an hour's training a day. I like to think they have a better life with me, with all their home comforts. As I am sure V has a great life with you. ❤️

Honestly he won't do ANYTHING for the most part of the lesson. I can't even get him to do the most basic thing, especially at the start. He does focus slightly more towards the end of the class but it's very much bare minimum. And I do know it's because we are in a paddock with lots of rabbit poo and pheasants close by etc etc. which trumps everything in his mind. The other dogs don't bother him at all, but even when we are stood listening to the trainer he is constantly pulling me to sniff the grass or try and eat stones and so on so I struggle to concentrate on what she's saying. Maybe I should have left it until he was a bit older but I feel like he should be able to do what is being asked of him now. He's just pissing me off big time 😂

And yes I probably think about it every day! I know she has minimal space left in Autumn/Winter but the cost is a huge barrier for us. I know it would be so good for him though. Did you see the video she posted this morning with all the dogs jumping in the truck one by one? I loved it because the dogs waiting in the boot are all doing excited tappy feet and it's so cute.

Yes, a Westmorland @brushingboots but the new version. My chap wears a L, I went for S which is 38" but it was too snug on my ginormous arse 😆If I wanted to wear a sweater under it later in the year I'd probably struggle to fasten it. I just feel that M would be too massive on the chest. Shoulders less an issue; I'm broad shouldered but small busted. Undecided whether to try a M or not. Don't want to risk a used old version one in case of smells that affect me - too many allergies for me to ever risk it.

Sorry that pupsy is still having issues. Sometimes they surprise us during a crisis, they seem to understand and can be remarkably tolerant of a break in routine. We've had one experience of significant leg surgery in the past, so I know it isn't easy. I hope things quickly improve for pupsy and you can resume your normal work with her.

Walks are hit and miss. On lead he is 'ok' unless we go somewhere new, so I always walk the same boring routes. Off lead a lot of the time he can be fantastic, like when we were up on the moor at the weekend. He had a good run about and explore but his recall was fab and he kept close by. If I take him in the woods he does run around like a maniac and ideally I would like him to stay closer. He runs in a big circle through the trees/undergrowth and always comes back to me but he disappears for a bit too long for my liking. I am worried that one day he will get into trouble by encountering a not so friendly dog when he's bombing about. There's a playing field next to the woods which is nice and quiet but as soon as we arrive he legs it down the opposite end to flush out the rabbits now he knows they are there. But to be fair to him, once he has done that he does come back to me and is good most of the time. It's like he needs to have a mad run about and get all his craziness out, then he will be tired enough to be able to train. It's a bit of a drive to get to his training and there's not really anywhere suitable near by where I could stop and have him let off some steam beforehand, otherwise I think that might have been a good thing to try.

And you are probably right! He almost was kept by his breeder when the person who was meant to have him originally dropped out last minute. But he would have been in a kennel most of the day too, rather than snoozing on my sofa like he currently is. His breeder is very local and actually works a few streets away from where I live, so I have visions of bumping into him out and about and him seeing Vinny being a twat in the flesh 😬

@YorkshireFelix OK, so it’s general engagement that you need to work on then before you do anything else. I wonder if some ‘look’ sessions might help? Just asking him to look at you and being rewarded when he does. And then build from there. I think that’s what I’d be trying.

I can see why your trainer is suggesting popping him with a lead if he’s pissing about even when you’re standing listening and watching. She’s suggesting a physical correction for that action in that moment and if I’m understanding right your negative markers aren’t cutting it?

I think in a class environment pupsy would sit nicely but she might whine – not the same problem but a similar idea. I think I’d tackle that by engaging with her (just texted you the idea I had about this while typing this!) or if she wouldn’t engage I’d be going back to look at how I could get her to engage nicely with me in that situation.

All of that being said, there is a reason we don’t do group classes and it’s because I didn’t think she (or I) would enjoy waiting around. I appreciate that 1-1s are much more ££ though but I haven’t had as many classes 1-1 as I think we would have needed in a group so maybe it’s worked out about the same.

I hear you about the cost of Tasha. It is a lot and I reckon most of her clients must be pretty well off as some of those dogs are there for ages. I did! It’s amazing what she does and I am always in awe of her. I love James Harding (Riverggins)’s dogs in the car videos too. It’s so impressive.

Yes you have hit the nail on the head re why she is suggesting a physical correction. I will try and work on some general engagement. It is difficult as in a lot of situations he is fine, it's specifically that location which is too much for him. And the trainer does recognise that as she talks about it a lot. It's a country house with grounds full of pheasants (I have genuinely never seen so many pheasants!) and she rents a small paddock there, so lots of exciting wildlife about.

We did all discuss this when I posted about the disaster first class, and in hindsight I should have just booked 1-1 sessions. He did great in the 1-1 I booked when we had missed the second class. It is something I can carry on doing as it's £45 a session so I could do one every couple of weeks, and you do get much more out of them than the group classes. A positive of the classes is I find it helpful watching what everyone else is doing and how their dogs respond to things, and I have learnt a lot from that. And everyone has been so nice and kind about Vinny and how I handle him.

Sorry for the huge thread derail everyone. I massively appreciate you all taking the time to give me some excellent advice as always!!

It's not a thread de-rail at all @YorkshireFelix , it's what the two threads exist for, to talk through problems and share experiences.

I'm not getting into training talk (as if I could 🙄) but just want to say please don't be so hard on yourself. Vinny is still a baby - his focus will improve. You'll get there.
I know it's frustrating at the moment but some pups need longer than others to get to the point of being able to concentrate on giving what you need. I am not being patronising saying this, because I'm looking at my own girl who is quite immature. She needs a lot more work than I expected at this point.

@Bupster is spot on with a lot of her observations. Bill is closest in age to Brie & Vinny so our issues are similar in many ways.

@YorkshireFelix V sounds a bit/lot like K at the minute. The first five minutes of wood walks, she runs wild. Recall is out the window, but she will do a 'this way'. And if we walk down the sea front, she's straight to the estuary for the ducks. I imagine that will be worse now she has caught one. 🙈 The ranging is an individual thing and what each person is comfortable with. I know mine go further than some people would be happy with. The difference is she's my 5th/6th dog and V is your first. So I am probably more relaxed about it as I know it's 'normal' adolescent behaviour.
It does sound more like the training environment isn't suitable for V. And I don't think using a slip lead will override his interests in the scents.
Totally different situation but same principle - a local trainer uses e collars to teach recall. The dog came running over to mine and the trainer and owner stayed in the distance. They were obviously constantly shocking the dog as it kept shaking his head and neck. But it didn't stop him from wanting to play with my dogs. Thy had to come and fetch him in the end.
I did group gundog classes and me and P were both bored. There were six dogs and they all took it in turns to do retrieves. In one lesson, she did four retrieves in an hour and the rest of the time was waiting around. His theory was dogs on shoots need to learn to sit and wait patiently. I have no intention of working P, so we used to go for a wander in between our turns. If I stood still, she'd be moving around trying to get to scents, or more usually asking me to pick her up.
Like @brushingboots I much prefer 1-to-1 classes. It's a full hour dedicated to your dog and your needs, so works out better value in the long run.

And you haven't derailed the thread at all. Isn't this the point of it? A support group to offer support when needed. 🤷‍♀️
Makes a nice change from you lot down in England moaning about the hot weather, whilst up here I have my heating on. 😂

28 here and far too hot!

As I never took gundog classes (or any training classes bar the one I stalked out of a few years ago…) so I cannot contribute much advice! But I dislike slip leads on principle for reasons PPs have said and I also think Vinny is just very young and it will come with time!

What I will contribute is a photo of twatdog in his natural environment. His one brain cell is currently on vacation.

I see the logic in the waiting around between other dogs’ goes on the basis that they have to learn to wait on shoots, @SpanielsGalore but in reality it’s nuts – especially for the notoriously impatient whiny cockers that we have. Yes, they need to learn to sit nicely but why on earth trainers insist on forcing them into that as babies with what is invariably an otherwise very stimulating and exciting environment I do not know. Practice sitting nicely at home, and build up, sure – but to chuck them all into a class when they can’t even sit still nicely at home is bonkers.

@LandSharksAnonymous

Sorry. Cackling like a cartoon witch right now.

He just looks so....ecstatic 😂😂😂

Oh joy. No less than three dog hate threads running concurrently today, one on the subject of 💩

@LandSharksAnonymous This is said with love - shut your face! 😂 15° here. Windy, cloudy and spotting with rain.
I never imagined sex elephant to be that huge! But look how happy he is giving it a cuddle. 💖

@MonCoubousMonTourmalet Is it the usual complaining about not picking it up? If so, I am going to join and complain about the filthy dirty humans who shit in the woods and leave it for my dogs to snack on.

The first set of lessons we did, he split the dogs into two groups of three. He worked with one group on one type of retrieve, whilst the other group practised something different on their own. Then we swapped over. That worked much better as you only had to wait for two turns.
The second set, he kept as one group so you had to sit through five turns. Each dog got as long as they needed to do the retrieve successfully. So some dogs took ages, as they needed lots of encouragement and sending out several times to fetch the dummy. P would sometimes do it in under a minute. Turn over.

Thank you @MonCoubousMonTourmalet , I do think Vinny and Bill are very similar in a lot of ways! Pains in the arses 😅

@SpanielsGalore I am very much a cold weather lover (apart from when we had solid ice for weeks last year!!) and I am soooo jealous that you are by the coast. I think Vinny and K would have a whale of a time chasing ducks together and ignoring their owners!!

The ecollar thing sounds awful. Poor dog. We do the taking it in turns thing for some of the retrieves but I use it as a break for Vinny to have a sniff and a drink. This week there was only V and one other dog so we got a lot of attention. But I totally agree that after this course has finished we need to stick to 1-1 sessions.

@LandSharksAnonymous I am another one who didn't realise Sex Elephant was so... large 😂 Ever since you mentioned him, Vinny now has a designated sex cushion and it has genuinely worked a treat, as gross as the whole concept is...

@YorkshireFelix
Ey up! I occasionally have a catch up on what’s going on and your slip lead dilemma made me finally want to post as you were so kind to me the last time I was on MN.
Brodie is now 18 months old and a very similar character to Vinny by the sound of it. I gave up on the idea of having a ‘perfect’ dog a good while ago and just let him live his best life. Easing off the pressure on both of us he brings me joy every day.
A while back my husband had sciatica and I broke my arm…excellent timing as all the walks were down to me. My husband has used a slip lead for a long time, he just does 2 gentle pops and it worked for him. I hated the thing, couldn’t get the timing right, and as Brodie knows I’m a soft touch he still pulled. As you said with Vinny, he could throttle himself on a flat collar, so the slip lead wasn’t much different but I still wouldn’t use it.
However, desperate times called for desperate measures and after a couple of hellish walks with a large cast on my arm, I started using it as a figure of eight (waits to be stoned) it was life changing. He protested the first couple of times I put it on him, but quickly forgot on his walk, he genuinely didn’t mind it at all and it stopped him pulling virtually instantly. It is a 2 metre one so he had plenty of range.
He’s back on a flat collar now and it’s like he just learnt not to pull. He doesn’t walk to heel but I was never bothered about that, I want him to potter about and sniff where he likes. I just didn’t want him dragging my arm out of its socket while he did the front crawl down the pavement.
I don’t think I would’ve tried it if I hadn’t been stuck, but it’s honestly the best thing I’ve ever done with him.
Photo of the poor abused darling reclining in his basket…

Crikey, sex elephant is massive, @LandSharksAnonymous!

Hello @BrodiePup! Long time! How nice to hear that he's doing so well. You were the one that made me unlurk in the first place.

It's lovely to see you @BrodiePup ❤

Ahh @BrodiePup it is so lovely to hear from you! Brodie is looking gorgeous.

That is interesting re the figure of 8 lead, especially since you went back to a flat collar and lead again afterwards. It is not something I really know anything about or have looked into at all, but I know they can also be a divisive subject too. It is so hard to know what to do for the best, and I welcome all opinions!

V will also occasionally do the bloody front crawl down the path when he's in one of his frantic moods and it just embarrassing! I always think the neighbours must see me being dragged out of our front garden and down the road every time, and I always hope they see us on the way back when he's tired and walking like an angel too, to cancel it out 😄