Our Cosmic Autumn Rebellion (Adolescent Support Group)

[MonCoubousMonTourmalet]

Okay folks, let's head into late summer/autumn.

Brie enjoying the evening coolness after another hot day.

On the topic of slip leads - sorry I know my tiny bit of experience is probably not useful here so feel free to ignore - my trainer suggested one too and told me how to put it on etc but I gave up on it after a couple of walks because I didn’t think it made any difference. I know I have seen loads of online trainers saying harnesses make dogs pull
more but that’s not been my experience with Pablo. He either pulls or he doesn’t depending on what’s going on around him.

Totally different scenario for me of course because Pablo is still so young and hasn’t reached the teenage rebellion phase yet so my challenge with him is more how excited he is by his environment balanced with how much he wants to listen to me on any given day - the latter usually winning over because he hasn’t become a rebel like we are yet.
When I say the latter wins over, it’s always a bribe with a treat! So I too am interested to know the opinions and experiences with them!

Pablo, also enjoying the coolness and crossing over from the other thread showing his preferred sleeping position ❤️

Thanks all - I appreciate the different opinions! I used to walk him on a harness but he definitely pulls a lot more on it. But equally he doesn’t seem to give a shit that his flat collar is pretty much choking him when he pulls too. I just feel like I don’t have very much control over him when we’re trying to focus on training. Our trainer says I need to keep pulling him back into position, and it does work eventually, but I feel like sometimes I could spend the full hour just doing that repeatedly… When she does it he is very responsive but I think she has the knack for it!

Morning - hope it’s okay to join! 7 month old miniature poodle over here. She’s our first, long wanted, dog.

Definitely struggling with some behaviours and a very nervous dog at the moment… so could do with a safe space!

Finding this stage (hopefully?) significantly harder than the puppy stage and currently looking into a few behaviourists.

It all feels very overwhelming - the love and the anxiety.

Hi and welcome to you and your girl @Flowerfusion

I hope you'll find the thread helpful and supportive. It is absolutely a safe space where we discuss specific problems or just vent after a particularly frustrating walk! Every phase of older puppy/adolescent/young adult has its own challenges, but 7 months is definitely not an easy stage at all!

It's totally up to you as to how much you want to share here - some of us post photos, dog name, approximate location but others don't.

Yes, it does feel overwhelming, the love and the anxiety and the frustration - you'll find plenty of all of those here.

Good Morning all

We've been on 6am walk here again, now enjoying a cuppa and trying to stay away from the dog hate thread of the day 🙄 Forecast here in Lancs is 21 but I won't be surprised if it goes higher than that.

I'm pleased to say that we had a hedgehog free sleep after being up twice on both the previous two nights. It felt blissful to have a lie in until 5.45 rather than Brie insisting on me traipsing out in pyjamas at 3am to greet her prickly friend.

Thank you @MonCoubousMonTourmalet - the warm welcome is much appreciated!

I do wonder if I’m going through slightly delayed puppy blues! I’m googling constantly as I’m so worried which I need to put a stop too. Finding a suitable behaviouralist seems like the best thing so we can focus on what she needs rather than jumping between different googled solutions!

Welcome @Flowerfusion it’s always nice to have a new face here!

Highs of 25 here today. I am so over the hot weather now and looking forward to autumn (but not the muddy walks again!). I have lost over 3st since the start of the year and all my coats/waterproof jackets are all hanging off me now so I’ll need to get some new bits. My best one is very randomly from Tesco and was only £40 but it’s amazing for walking in the rain and wind as it’s long and has cuffs inside the sleeves and the perfect size hood for me. I’ve been scouring Vinted for an exact replacement but no luck so far 😩

You could be @Flowerfusion I went through puppy blues quite late myself. Most people seem to experience it in the first weeks, but initially I was euphoric with my pup. For me the anxiety and low mood kicked in later, at 6 or 7 months, more or less where you are now.

For me it coincided with her going through a secondary fear period, when she became jumpy about things that hadn't really bothered her before. I called out a trainer last October/November, so Brie was indeed 7 months old at that point. It will be on one of the older threads...

I think yes, try some 1-1 training sessions but be careful to find a trainer/behaviourist that uses non aversive techniques. You'll see this discussed a lot here.

You may also find it helpful to join the puppy thread if you haven't already, because your girl is very much in that transition period, so the discussion over there will just as relevant to her. Some of us do straddle both threads for support and advice.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/the_doghouse/5369191-summer-25-pups?page=29&reply=146305844

Morning All.
@MonCoubousMonTourmalet We didn't wake up until 8:30 today. That's a lie in. 5:45 is getting up in the middle of the night, because you need a wee and going back to bed for a few hours. 😂
Fortunately we have our usual shit weather, so I don't need to be out for early walks. However, yesterday it was 20° in the shade and 35° in the sun. 🥳

@YorkshireFelix My reactive dog pulled no matter what I used. But if I used a flat collar, he'd pull until he was sick. The harness just stopped him from damaging his throat.
I'm not a dog trainer, but V's problem seems to be focus in group situations. How does keep yanking him back solve that? I've been there with my sprocker. Once he became focused on something else (a lab that had slipped his lead and ran riot), there was no getting his attention back on me.

@Flowerfusion Wecome to our support group. 😊 I think I joined when K was a similar age and her perfect recall went out of the window. Adolescence is way harder than puppy stage. Just when you think you have a well trained puppy, they turn into teenage horrors. Are there specific things you are having problems with? We could say what worked for us and see if that helps.
Also, the world of dog trainers is fairly unregulated. Try to find a behaviourist who is PACT or APDT registered or only uses force free methods. If you want to say what area you are in or post a link to whomever you are considering seeing, we could double check them for you. Not saying you can't find a good one yourself, but a couple of people in the group have contacted trainers who turned out to be not what they were after.

Gosh, that's some weight loss @YorkshireFelix ! The perfect coat sounds like a lucky find but it's always annoying when you can't find a second.

Speaking of clothing, sadly my "Spaniel Man" waxed cotton gilet is heading back today - loved the colour, design, pockets, length, but it wouldn't fasten over my womanly hips. It's so unfair how the nicest outdoor clothing is aimed at men, but if you're a female with a penchant for sludgy olive green, it's really hard to find a decent gilet/waistcoaty thingummy. The women's ones are all too short but the men's apparently won't accommodate my bum without me sizing up and it then being massive on the chest.

@SpanielsGalore day-to-day he generally walks fine on his collar and lead (unless we go somewhere new but that’s a whole different thing!!). The trainer said in a loose lead walking situation, stopping and sniffing etc is obviously completely fine and normal. I would never ever be one of those people who expects perfect heel in all situations and never lets their dog sniff and explore as I think it’s really sad!

It’s more that when it’s time for training, he knows what I am asking him to do but he is just choosing to ignore it. But the more I let him ignore it, the worse it is getting. I let him have a long wander round and sniff/toilet at the start, then I usually only do a short bit of each exercise and give him really long sniff breaks in between. He gets lots of treats and huge praise for every single thing he does well. The putting him back into position is basically to reinforce that I am asking him to do something and he needs to do it. I don’t know if I’m explaining it right really.

I just feel like I am bloody gentle parenting a dog who doesn’t respond to gentle parenting! I genuinely have the patience of a saint because my dd is autistic and patience is the only thing that works with her, so this whole tough love thing doesn’t come naturally to me. I do think dogs need boundaries and need to be taught right from wrong, and I use a negative marker word with him but that’s it really, because what else can you do?

I really appreciate the advice on this though as I don’t know what to do for the best. Our trainer knows V very well and I trust her advice completely - she was very clear that it is what she would do if V was her dog but she said it’s 100% up to me whatever I choose to do. So I am very torn because what I’m doing now is obviously not working, and he responds very well when the trainer handles him (just to be clear she is not rough at all, I would never let anyone be like that with him!) but it’s a very divisive subject.

Yes and the fact it was cheap and from Tesco was just amazing! It is honestly so good - really big pockets and a drawstring waist so I can pull it in and not look like I’m wearing a sack. But even pulled in it now looks sack like on me so I am gutted!

Totally agree re the hips thing. It is so frustrating. I have seen people recommend the Decathlon vest but no idea if it would be what you’re looking for really. I feel like we are always on the search for the perfect item which doesn’t actually exist 😄 There’s obviously a gap in the market!!

Good morning!
I have an almost 2yo lab. Last year I used to post on these adolescent dog threads regularly (different user name) and have read almost every post since. I love hearing about all your dogs fantastic natures and progress.
Im briefly de-lurking to share my experience of slip leads, which I hope is of some help.
Last year my exhuberant good natured lab pulled me over on wet grass in park in his determination to greet another lab. In the process I fell and badly strained a muscle in my leg so struggled to get up. My lab had pulled lead from my hand so was now around 5 metre away trying to greet the other lab. The other lab was months younger than mine, an extremely well trained working type, who was only interested in her training dummy and recieving her next instruction from her person who appeared to be a very experienced hard core working gun dog type complete with cap, wax jacket, dummies, whistle, slip leads and categorically no treatos. In many ways they put me and my training skills to shame.
While I was in agony, struggling to move or get up from the wet grass, the other lab person took my dog's lead (which was trailing behind him), removed it and replaced it with a slip lead which he positioned high on my dogs neck and proceeded "to pop' my dog with. My usually friendly easy going lab looked over at me terrified, shocked, confused and desperate to return to me. I hated it too and quickly got to my feet despite the pain of my injury to get my dog back and off that 'quick pop' slip lead.
When I had my dog back his own lead, the other dog's person talked to me about high level training, apparently oblivious to my injury, struggle to walk, and to mine or my dogs emotions.
Before I fell I'd watched the utterly flawless control he had over his young dog, and his dog's responsiveness with total awe and admiration.
But not when I saw how he'd achieved that almost machine like level of obedience with things like his slip lead. Granted, his dog was off lead, highly trained, clearly engaged and didn't appear at all unhappy.
However, in my opinion these things choke the dog in a way that should never happen - especially not to any sentient loving creature who are part of our family. We know this instinctively but sometimes can get influenced by people selling us dream of perfectly controlled dog.
How did the brief encounter with a slip lead in 'expert hands' affect my dog? Every time I took him back to that part of the park for 5 months straight his hackles raised slightly in fear, only relaxing after 5 minute sniff around. This was the only time I ever saw that reaction from my usually care-free confident dog. My dog and I have never seen that man or his lab since that day. My dog has only in the last few months completely stopped the hackles in the place he encontered the slip lead.
My dog's an extremely clever show type who's much more interested in making friends than retrieving games. He has some gun dog in his genetic nature for sure. I see it in how his fascination with birds, his sheer athleticism, how he loves to bring me the post, or other lost (or stolen items). It's there in his bidableness and in his instant :all in" reaction to known commands. It's there in his love of covering challenging terain. I give him opportunities to use all his skills. All these things (and much more) make him a fantastic dog who's so great to be with.
But he's not a gun dog with impecable training and I don't aspire to that for him at all. He's a much loved family member, as I know are all the dogs on this thread. While there's something so admirable and attractive in a highly obedient dog, I now settle happily for pet level training focused on good social bhaviour and ability to keep control when necessary - even if it means he's the good natured class 'bad boy' sometimes.

Thanks @YorkshireFelix
That's the biggest drawback of weight loss I guess, needing a new wardrobe. Frustrating.
I wear a Seasalt Plant Hunter jacket, that has a drawstring waist, decent pockets and a well-fitting hood. I bought it from the Seasalt Ebay oulet so it was less than half price. That's been a good buy.

I also have a Barbour Beadnell dupe but my chap has proper Barbours and the gilet is really useful, hence me wanting one. I know @brushingboots wears the same gilet because I asked about it on here a while back - though I think she said it's an older version that she preferred though. Maybe I should just order a size up and see how it is because I did like it.

Looked at Decathlon just now, they do have some padded and fleece type gilets but I couldn't find a waxed one. I'll have another look around.

@YouCouldSayImADreamer

If you're who I think, then it is lovely to see you! I always appreciated your insights here. I won't pressure you to stay, I know you found forum life doesn't suit you (nor me tbh, but I do feel amongst friends on this thread). I'm very glad that you still read the threads and follow our progress x

@YorkshireFelix I suppose it comes down to what you want from Vinny and what you are hoping to achieve through the training classes.
None of mine have ever walked to heel, which is fine by me. We aim to do loose lead walking, but always slightly in front. We have varying degrees of success with this, depending on dog, location, timing. They are also free to stop and sniff.
I think raising dogs is very mucn like raising children. They both need to have boundaries and to learn the house rules, so we can live harmoniously together.
I'm not a positive plus person, or whatever the term is. I use negative markers - 'No', 'Ahh', 'Fucking pack it in'. The last one is usually reserved for when P and K choose to wrestle on the sofa right next to me when they have the whole house and garden to do it in. 🙄
I train with treats. And if one method doesn't work, I'll try to find another way of doing it. I don't use aversive tools or training methods.
My gundog trainer also said he'd be more forceful with P if she was his dog. But I have seen his 'pops' on lead and scruffing dogs back into position and I don't want or need that for my dogs.

Having lived with a reactive dog for 14 years, my bar is now very low. All I really require from my dogs is that they are friendly and sociable. They behave in the house and aren't destructive. (We won't mention the puppy toilet roll stealer.) On walks, they are free to do their own thing within reason. They follow me, but range further than some people would be happy with. They recall to the whistle (unless deer are involved) and do voluntary check ins.
And that's pretty much it. I have done agility, hoopers and gundog training with P for fun things to do. We much preferred the agility to the gundog training. Unfortunately we had to give it up when she was diagnosed with dodgy knees.

Sorry. I have waffled a lot there and I am not sure much of it is particularly relevant or useful. In summary - decide what you want from Vinny and what methods you are comfortable using to achieve this.

Congratulations on your weight loss. I hope you find your coat.
I have the same walking trousers and coat (both coincidentally by Peter Storm) in three sizes and regularly go up and down between them.

@YouCouldSayImADreamer & @SpanielsGalore I know those posts were for @YorkshireFelix but I really appreciated them too ❤️

All this talk of coats is making me crave autumn!

@VanGoSunflowers Move to Scotland. You'll have Autumn and Winter all year round. 🙄 😂

@YouCouldSayImADreamer OMG That is awful. Your poor dog. I would have been absolutely fucking livid if someone did that to my dog. It really shows how one second of harsh treatment can cause long term damage. I am glad he is getting over it now.

Sorry, am a bit AWOL as am drowning in work in the run up to my book coming out.

The foot saga goes on. On Wednesday the stitch came out of her leg somehow so I took her back to the vets just in case – though it looked fine. The nurse flushed it and cleaned it and said it was fine but now without a stitch in she had to prescribe lead walks of TEN MINUTES ONLY (!) twice a day.

In reality they’ve been more like 20 minutes twice a day because in ten minutes you get nowhere interesting but I have kept her strictly on a normal (not long) lead, really, really not wanting to backslide into stitches and sedations again. Full credit to her, she’s been absolutely fine and seems totally unaffected by it – still sleeping through, no destruction, still eating, pooing etc. I think it just goes to show (as I knew) that they really don’t need a whole lot of exercise and if they don’t get it occasionally it’s fine. She had a bit of puppy zooms in the garden last night but who can blame her, poor girl hasn’t had a proper walk since last Wednesday! Back to the vets in the morning and then again on Monday. The wound looks absolutely fine to me and she isn’t licking or fussing at it so I hope she might be signed off even tomorrow so I can take her for a blast somewhere. It’s coincided with both me being extremely busy and it being extremely hot so it’s not a terrible thing but I do feel sorry for her. This morning she walked beautifully on the lead though so clearly she has accepted her fate.

@YorkshireFelix My trainer always says it’s not about what you use but how you use it and I agree, but I know what you mean about there needing to be a consequence to him being naughty. I am a negative marker word(s) person for sure and pupsy absolutely knows when she’s in the wrong. I put her back in position and (a la Charlie T) I run after her if she bogs off and growl at her a bit, but I’ve never scruffed her.

As you know I don’t use a slip lead – if I had another pup now I would, so it was normal for them, but because I didn’t start pupsy on one I’m not going to start now. Even if I did use one I don’t think I’d be ‘popping’ my dog with it anyway – I’d have used it as a gentle method of teaching them never to pull to start with. As it is I didn’t think to do that with pupsy but I would if I was starting again now with what I’ve learned.

I agree with @SpanielsGalore about it depending on what you want out of V, who I wish lived near me so we could walk together!

@Flowerfusion Welcome to the coven!

@MonCoubousMonTourmalet Which gilet did you order in the end? I really do love my old men’s Westmorland Barbour gilet. Would definitely recommend if you can find one on Ebay/Vinted etc. The new Westmorlands are a different shape, like the new Barbours are a different shape too and it’s not a good different shape.

@YouCouldSayImADreamer If you are who I think you are, hello! How nice to see you! What a bloody outrageous thing for that man to have done! I can’t imagine a world in which I would ever put my own lead on someone else’s dog! Christ. These people walk among us. How rude.

I'm like you @SpanielsGalore but my advice/opinion is less relevant because I'm not gundogs.
I probably do more basic training than I think I do (if that makes sense...). I am strict in some ways with regard to behaviour at home. I would never use aversives and I do like my dogs to have spirit without it being knocked out of them. They've all had a wild side and I don't mind that as long as I know I can trust them around people (esp kids), dogs and cats.

As you rightly say, it's deciding what you want from your pup and what you're aiming for.

Thank you @MonCoubousMonTourmalet - I will look back through the thread! Yes, I was over the moon in the puppy stage and now I feel incredibly low. So could all add up!

She’s suddenly so incredibly nervous (barking at everything that moves - new objects in the house/garden), noises outside…. even the toilet flushing is causing her ears to go back.

She’s a girl on the edge and it’s breaking my heart!

@SpanielsGalore - I’m looking at https://www.harmony.dog

She does a fair amount of air snapping, sometimes I know the trigger, sometimes I’m not sure, as well as resource guarding stolen items.

This isn’t new, but is definitely happening more regularly now, and whilst we trade for stolen items the air snapping is the real issue as it’s unpredictable.

I’ve been to the vets for a general health check and it wasn’t our usual one, and she growled and reacted when the vet was pressing her tummy. So she had a muzzle put on her - which I understand - but just sad as she’s previously always been fine being examined. So she has some pain relief just in case.

@MonCoubousMonTourmalet I don't think your advice/opinion is less relevant. I know this discussion started about a gundog class, but at the end of the day it's about what level of basic training and behaviour we want/need from our dogs. And what methods we are prepared to use to achieve it.
I would imagine in a lot of ways you need to do more training than me. What my little 8kg puppy can get away with wouldn't be as acceptable coming from your mahoosive pup. People can be so breedist! 😁

@brushingboots Sorry to hear pupsy is still on on lead walks. At least the timing for it has been good. Sounds like she is coping well with the short walks, but I bet she'll be happy to finally get a good run.
It really goes to show when people keep slating working cockers as being high energy nutters, they do have off switches. P had almost a full year of crate rest and short walks with her knee, as she needed a follow up operation and then developed tendinitis.

Not for the first time, @YorkshireFelix , we could be the same person - you may recall the memorable afternoon I had to spend our 1-1 training session training an orange agility cone as all we could see of him was his fluffy white arse. Bill struggles constantly with focus, particularly in that paddock as it's full of swoopy birds.

I do understand why slip leads are used for gundogs - Bill got his collar caught between two trunks of a tree once; luckily I was right there, but if you're sending a dog into rough cover, you don't want them getting trapped. However, Bill will always wear a collar for the ID tag, and will never go on a shoot, so that situation is unlikely to arise regularly (and his collar is now loose enough that he can back out of it if he really needs to). He doesn't need a slip lead for safety, and I refuse to use one to train him for a few reasons.

Firstly, dogs' throats are at least as delicate as ours if not more so. My former puppy class trainer used a slip lead on one of her whippets before she knew any better and did permanent damage to the dog's neck. The handful of times I've clipped a lead onto Bill's collar, he's generally not pulled, but once he nearly choked himself. He's therefore staying on a harness for his safety and wellbeing.

Second, there's no justification for choking a dog to punish it, which is basically what a slip lead does when it's used for corrections. Yes, I know you can set them so they don't choke the dog - like the martingales that @MonCoubousMonTourmalet uses. But to get them to work better than an ordinary collar and lead that's basically what you need them to do - they work because they hurt. That's a red line for me.

Finally, I can't see how using a slip lead would get him to focus on me, rather than the pain or discomfort of the lead. I want him to want to work (or walk nicely or whatever), and for that, he needs to be able to manage his own arousal and engage with me. I don't want to do that through making him fear me, so it's a matter of working with his arousal levels and finding what will help him to slow himself down and reorient to me (the migration of these bloody swallows for a start). It's a much slower process, but for us, it's the only choice.