The hate towards doddle owners.

[RedDeer]

The hate against doodles,
I keep reading about Doodle owners, in a negative way on here, I'm wondering why they is so much negativity around them.

For context I have a poodle cross, who gets treated like a dog, we have used trainers, she goes hiking with us, is groomed regular. Doesn't sleep in our bed, can be left alone for a few hours no problem, and not a fussy eater, just eats dry food.
I didn't pay 1000s for her, paid the same as a cross breed. She has no health issues etc.

Yes she does have traits of both breeds, she can be hyper, and prone to barking at times. But we are aware of her breeds, both working dogs.

So am I unusual in that my doddle is treated like a dog. Or is there an unfair reputation towards doodles and owners?

@EdithStourton agreed that pedigrees aren’t perfect. But the owners tend to be (IME) a lot more on the ball about health testing, COI and the bitches welfare and, when they’ve cocked up, admit it.

And some pedigree breeds are worse than others and the best way to fix it is to be involved in the breed. I’m involved in my breed to the point where I’ve actively stopped, with others, suggestions about improving the ‘conformity’ because, to me, suggesting what was being suggested was insane. There’s nothing out there to stop it with poo-crosses, who arguably need it more.

I’d also say, just because a Goldendoodle has a lower rate of cancer than a Goldie or a Poodle it doesn’t mean every issue like that is solved. I know lots of cancer free Goldies who have lives incredibly long lives. But cases of PRA, which is awful (I know a dog with it), and Heart disease are more prevalent in Goldendoodles - because the owners don’t bother to test for it. They also tend to have far higher rates of dysplasia - which is beyond disgraceful. The cancer thing is down to luck on the part of the breeder more than anything as they’re not trying to breed a ‘cancer free dog’ (although I’m sure this will end up being their latest gimmick) - whereas PRA, heart defects and dysplasia are activity down to poor breeding on their part. Ultimately, it’s choice to be a negligent owner and breeder.

There are lots of lovely mongrels and cross-breeds out there as well where the owners are on the ball. But poo-crosses seem to be the exception to this, in my personal experience.

We inadvertently had a Doodle over thirty years ago!
Only in those days, it was just a cross. We bred a standard poodle with a greyhound. It was usual to cross a greyhound with a brainy dog to produce a lurcher.
I wonder if he would have been called a greypoo?
For the record, he was beautiful, with a curly coat and very bright. Unfortunately, poodles' feet are quite small for their size, and he was prone to foot injuries and cuts.

I don’t feel superior for having a pedigree.

when I got our pup I knew what I wanted. Low maintenance, small, intelligent but not a “working” dog. He happens to be low shedding and low allergy, but that wasn’t a factor. Active, but doesn’t need loads of walks.

i chose a pedigree because i knew i had a good chance of getting all those things because it’s a breed trait.

i know the issues with the breed. I took steps to avoid them. The issues are generally fixable and not life ending if they do occur.

a cross would introduce massive uncertainty that I wasn’t willing to take. A neighbour got a doodle. It was supposed to be a “small”’ dog, two “mini” breeds. It’s not. It’s not huge, but she’s elderly and it’s too big to lift into the car or pick up on the bus for her, or into the bath.

this is what I don’t get about doodle owners. They tell me oh we got a doodle because we wanted x y and a (usually poodle traits), and really don’t seem to get that a cross reduces their chance of getting that breed trait. You want non shedding, get a non shedding breed!

@LandSharksAnonymous
But the owners tend to be (IME) a lot more on the ball about health testing, COI and the bitches welfare
100% agree.

I’d also say, just because a Goldendoodle has a lower rate of cancer than a Goldie or a Poodle it doesn’t mean every issue like that is solved.
Also 100% agree - that wasn't clear from my post. Anyone breeding crosses should still be testing for the recessives to which both parent breeds are prone (and everything known if they want puppies who don't carry those genes).

They also tend to have far higher rates of dysplasia - which is beyond disgraceful.
Also 100% agreed. I know someone who had a springer x lab. The dog needed a double hip replacement, his HD was so bad. HD is particularly horrible because it's polygenetic and also seems to be environmentally mediated (diet, slippery floors as puppies). That makes it very hard to breed away from.

The cancer thing is down to luck on the part of the breeder
The stats across breeds show that certain forms of cancer are far more prevalent in some breeds than in others. Some of this has to be due to genetics, not to chance. And Goodies, sadly, are very prone. There will of course be dogs who don't get cancer (just as in the days before genetic testing, there were plenty of goldies who didn't develop PRA) and live into their mid-teens. The breed I own is not especially prone to cancer (though it does crop up sometimes) and most dogs in the breed live to be 12+.

@Whosenameisthis
I don’t feel superior for having a pedigree.
Well, no, neither do I.
Like you, we knew what we wanted, and a pedigree gave us that. TBH there are various crosses of the breed we own that could give us pretty much the same thing - and a COI of zero.

Ass was absolutely fucking mental. It had to go and work for the prison service as a sniffing dog.
It was completely unsuitable for family life

@EdithStourton sometimes I think we’re too aligned 😁

On the final point, I more mean that these non-pedigree breeders aren’t breeding with ‘lowering the cancer gene’ (for lack of a better phrase) in mind, and so it’s down to luck this has happened for them more than being well thought out!

Goldies are hugely prone to cancer (and even benign lumps which can cause significant issues). It’s why I think careful breeding is so important - none of mine have had it (touch wood) but I am incredibly careful about breeding.

I knew I couldn’t handle the poodle coat and its daily requirement for brushing out. So that was most crosses out before I even started.

i also know dogs, and their ability find the most disgusting, stinky, rotting whatever to roll in. That + curly coat, nope 😂

while mine is long haired a regular clip every 6 weeks keeps on top of it, with the odd wash when he’s rolled in crap.

Who told you a poodle’s coat needs daily attention? Mine gets brushed once a week and a trip to the groomers every eight weeks.

All I can say as regards cancer is brilliant! And keep at it!

Doodles, not poodles.

the cross with a different type of coat means they are more likely to Matt/felt.

there’s a reason groomers dislike doodles.

eta see how I wasn’t clear. I was talking about crosses with the poodle coat :)

Brilliant can you tell me what health tests the parents had?

@BarkItOff I can but I haven't any intention of doing so because I am not getting into it with a stranger on line. Nor am I going to ask you to justify your decisions and I'm sure you have no interest in whether or not they meet my standards.
If you read and understood my position I have said that I wouldn't get another doodle because I share everyone's concerns regarding the breeding of these, and other popular types of dogs, both crosses and pedigrees.
I have also said that the problems people profess to be concerned about will not be sorted by castigating owners of particular dogs but rather systemic reform of breeding regulations and increasing public knowledge of the issues.

So I will assume that means the parents did not have ALL the health tests as I stated I haven’t yet seen a single doodle breeder carrying out. Hence there is no such thing as an ethical doodle breeder no matter how long you’ve known them because an ethical breeder does EVERYTHING in their power to ensure they are producing healthy puppies.

Not sure why you are so secretive about health tests, again this seems to be a doodle owner trait. Those of us with health tested dogs are quite happy to share the results and in fact they are published on the KC site.

I can tell you my poodles parents were both PRA, OC and VWD1 tested. They both have hip and patella scores below the breed average, they both have yearly eye exams that have found no problems. My puppy has had a full DNA profile done.

If doodle breeders are doing this, and I know they are not, why would doodle owners not be shouting this from the roof tops saying look my doodle was ethically bred? The answer is generally because the owner knows deep down that they weren’t and prefers to hide this.

@BarkItOff If I said all non doodle owners were apparently all confontational, judgemental and sanctamonious the fact that I said it would not make it correct. I have said I really don't want to get into a personalised on line argument. If you do you will have to fight with your fingernails as my mother would say.
I have NOTHING to hide and resent the implication that I do.
I think the very valid points that have been raised by many on this thread would be much better received by everyone if the delivery was less adversarial and abrasive

It wasn’t an argument. It was a question that you responded to defensively. Which said it all.

It really says absolutely nothing other than what I have already said it says.
I can see however you have completely ruled that out as even a remote possiblilty so there is really no point in continuing this.
I came back in because @LandSharksAnonymous thought all the doodle owners had disappeared and I just wanted to say I hadn't. The fact that I have felt interrogated since I did reply probably explains why the non doodle owners feel they are in an echo chamber.

You felt interrogated by one question?

Are you normally so sensitive?

@Twodogsonthecouch I think that proves the point though. Multiple Doodle owners have been asked on this thread if their dogs have health tests, and basically none have answered yes.

It’s only an echo chamber because no one answers the question in the affirmative! 😃

One question and accusations of lying when I responded.

Not particularly sensitive, just intelligent enough to realise when there is no point in continuing a coversation.

Really am over and out now.. have a good weekend

Calling posters defensive and /or implying that they are overly sensitive seems to be a thing on MN recently.
Poster A poses a question or makes a thinly disguised criticism.
Poster B responds.
Cue cries of ' you're being defensive'" ' are you normally this sensitive'
It's not conducive to debate or sharing views.

Unfortunately the Doghouse has form for what could be civil discussions spiralling quickly into accusations and arguments.

Dogs, innit? People have very strong feelings on the topic, and it can be desperately hard to take a deep breath and think, actually, no, that might be true but it isn't helpful to the OP (or the PP)... let me see if I can phrase that another way.

I'm sure I get pissy sometimes, but I do try not to.

ETA, just having glanced at another thread, some posters seem very keen to kick people when they're down. It doesn't matter how irresponsible you think they have been, you never the full story, and it doesn't hurt anyone to remember that there isn't just a dog at the other end, there is also a human being. It drives away OPs who might stick around and learn something if the atmosphere was different.

I have both, a doodle and pedigree dogs.

Each one fulfills their purposes beautifully.

Would I have another doodle? Probably not, but that's because I don't want another high coat maintenance dog. Same applies to my current pedigrees.
My doodle has been a bit of a learning curve as it's most likely working cooker & mini Poodle cross. She's got all the bad characteristics of both breeds: hyper, nervous, clingy, obsessive, sensitive, ... so a pedigree Spaniel is definitely out as well!

For my pedigrees, the breeding has gone downhill as the uk gene pool is to small. There are definitely a lot more health issues and less breeding stock than say 15 years ago.
I guess the popularity of Poodle, doodle and Co have contributed to this. But my pedigrees are the perfect urban dog: small to medium sized, low prey drive, low exercise needs, easy enough to train, hypoallergenic coat and love their people!

It’s only an echo chamber because no one answers the question in the affirmative! 😃

@LandSharksAnonymous why did you insert a laughing emoji at the end of your remark ?

The trouble with wanting doodle owners to “admit they cocked up” as @LandSharksAnonymous put it, is that it can feel like asking them to say their dog shouldn’t exist...an impossible and cruel idea for any loving pet owner.

It’s a bit like my friend, who married a man that turned out to be a nasty abusive violent sack of *%^^. She’d never defend him, but when asked if marrying him was a mistake, she hesitates because her children came from that relationship. To say it was a mistake feels like saying her children shouldn’t exist, and that’s unthinkable.

Many people, myself included, didn’t start out as “dog people.” I wasn’t seriously considering getting a dog, and then completely out of the blue, I saw her little face in a photo and something in me flipped. I went to the breeders on their sheep farm, the last of the litter, 13 weeks old who got left behind while all her litter mates were chosen. I didn’t ask the right questions, didn’t really understand what ethical breeding involved, didn't scrutinise the health test paperwork they showed me etc (I wouldn't have known what I was looking at was legit anyway) and only saw one part of their house (kitchen/diner), saw mum and dad but didn't really know what to think beyond "Mum seems affectionate with her, Dad doesn't seem to give a shit and is more concerned about the smell of dinner cooking".

But I walked away with my best friend. She makes my house a home, and my personality & solo environment is the perfect place for her quiet introverted little soul. Whatever the circumstances, she is not a mistake. She's the best thing that has ever happened to me.

That being said, I paid the money and fed the boom.

I've not had her hip scored etc because I have no plans to breed obviously but out of curiosity I have screened myself for genetic health. She's clear from everything apart from IVDD genes. I've researched and the best thing I can do is feed her healthy natural food and incorporate hill walking to keep her lower back muscles strong. Hopefully this will stop those genes expressing themselves. Now I'm just trying to decide and research if spaying before or after her second heat is the best thing for her health and development, but that's a topic for another thread.

Would I support doodle breeding again?
Probably not but I'd have to look away quickly. And pretend really hard that I hadn't just seen an unchosen dog who needs a home that might end up in a shelter if someone doesn't take her. I can't even resist buying a stuffed animal in a shop if I've already made eye contact 😂

Do I label her a cock up?
ABSOLUTELY NOT. How cruel, that would indicate someone doesn't love (or deserve) their pet.

I’m not alone in feeling torn between loving the dog I have and recognising the boom in popularity that made her existence possible, and the subsequent systemic issues that can result from that boom. That internal conflict is what makes this topic so fraught: asking someone to “admit they made a mistake” in getting their dog can sound like asking them to wish away the very animal who brings them love, companionship, and happiness. Can you understand that’s an impossible ask for someone who feels like their dog saved them, or vice versa.

This is actually one of the more civilised discussions I have seen on the Doodle Hate topic.