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Adolescent Dog Survival Thread - welcome to the teenage wasteland

1000 replies

Bupster · 02/07/2025 20:32

Buckled (under instruction 😄)

OP posts:
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88
SpanielsGalore · 29/07/2025 22:10

I know a Siberian Husky called Bodhi.
P is Affix Gia (which I don't know how to pronounce) and K is Affix Florence. She is so not a Florence. 😂

VanGoSunflowers · 30/07/2025 00:19

Evening all, or should I say good morning?
Anyway, I’m happy to report that Pab the Lab seems to be back on top form and has had a lovely evening on a little walk with his sweet greyhound friend.
Talking about KC names, Pabs’ is king of hearts which I think suits him ❤️

@CoubousAndTourmalet fair play to you for telling her so. I don’t know as much as you guys but it appears to me that there are a lot of people in the dog world that seem to be charlatans, is there not enough regulation do you think?

@LandSharksAnonymous I can’t even imagine how hard it must be to pick just one pup out of a litter! How old are they again now? Sorry, I’ve been out of it for a while! I gather you’re simultaneously looking forward to being free of a litter but also will probably see them go with mixed emotions? I’m in awe of how much thought you give to the process! Part of me wishes I had picked your brain more before I found my breeder… but then, as much as she was fairly useless in some aspects, I can’t imagine ending up with any dog other than my sweet Pablo ❤️

@YorkshireFelix the session I had with the trainer the other week, she used ‘dead’ as a release word?! I don’t know if that’s usual or not but hey ho. I am glad you had such a good session! I bet it feels wonderful when it goes the way you want it to!

@brushingboots the tone of voice is an interesting one, I have been playing with it a bit when I ‘release’ Pablo for his meal. The word I use to release is ‘break’ and I’ve been trying it in different tones of voice and different volumes to see what works. Also, I really wanna know about the spreadsheet of Church of England parishes but I don’t want to derail the thread 😂 (unknowledgable history geek here!)

VanGoSunflowers · 30/07/2025 00:32

Sorry @Nella68 I forgot to say, I’m trying to get better with saying no to people when they want to meet Pablo. In my head, I think it may be a breed specific thing? Like with Pablo, he’s just so excited to meet everyone that I feel I have to temper that a little and try and teach him that not everyone wants to say hi - because they don’t and that’s ok. Even fewer people will want to say hi when he’s a fully grown rather generic (and I mean that lovingly) lab. So I’m trying to manage his expectations as well. The constant conversation I seem to have is me asking him to not jump up, them saying they don’t mind, and me wanting to say “but I mind!” because I want him to learn those manners now so he’s not doing it when he is big and fully grown! I’ve found it a minefield, personally. Because once upon a time, I would have been that person who wanted a puppy jumping all over them 😂

tizwozliz · 30/07/2025 06:39

Even fewer people will want to say hi when he’s a fully grown rather generic (and I mean that lovingly) lab. So I’m trying to manage his expectations as well

You'd be surprised how many people still want to fuss grown up generic labs 😂

Mine are actually quite aloof on walks so I have to temper people's expectations when they ask if they can say hi and tell them they might get blanked.

LandSharksAnonymous · 30/07/2025 07:21

@YorkshireFelix definitely a brilliant name! I know a Golden named Percy which I love. Percy feels like such a Golden name. FIL wants to get a Bichon Frise (he’s looking for puppies atm) and call it Ronald!

@VanGoSunflowers sounds like Pablo is pretty perfect anyway and you got a lot from your thread anyway! Glad he’s better - it’s always a worry when they’re so young.

Pups are seven weeks this weekend! One of the future owners has been waiting nearly three years (approached me just before Twatdog was born) and has been buying her Goldens from me/DMum for over 25 years now! So when I think of it like that, and the fact they’ve had owners waiting for them for so long, it’s hard to really miss them as they were never mine to start with! Plus I’ll be glad to stop needing to clean every five seconds 😄

brushingboots · 30/07/2025 09:06

@VanGoSunflowers ‘Dead’ is usually used instead of ‘drop’ or ‘give’ for giving up something. Odd that she’d use it as a release word.

Haha, the Church of England spreadsheet is a very big one! I don’t mind slightly self-interestedly derailing the thread. In six weeks my book Heirs and Graces, a history of the modern British aristocracy, is published and I am doing loads of publicity for it and writing a million pieces about it for various papers and magazines. For the last two weeks I’ve been writing about the relationship between the upper class and the Church of England for one magazine and it has meant doing a complete survey of all COE parishes to see which ones still have links! Hence the spreadsheet. I don’t recommend it, personally, though the conclusions I reached were very interesting so it was worth it!

Gratuitous book link here as I am obliged at all times to plug my book!
https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/453305/heirs-and-graces-by-doughty-eleanor/9781529153040

Heirs and Graces

There are fewer than 5000 people who can genuinely claim to be members of the British aristocracy, and yet they loom large in the popular consciousness. We're fascinated by their houses and estates, their lives and loves, their foibles and eccentriciti...

https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/453305/heirs-and-graces-by-doughty-eleanor/9781529153040

VanGoSunflowers · 30/07/2025 09:07

@tizwozliz reading my post back, I think generic was the wrong word - I should have said ubiquitous 😂 as in, if people see a lot of them they may be less likely to want to hi to them but clearly that’s not the case 😂

@LandSharksAnonymous breakfast has stayed down this morning so I’d say we are out of the woods!
I love that you have pups that have been wanted for three years before they were actually born. That seven weeks has gone so fast! So I guess only another week and a bit to go until they go off to their new homes?

CoubousAndTourmalet · 30/07/2025 09:12

I could say I don't think there is enough regulation @VanGoSunflowers but I'm not sure its as simple as that. Experience counts for a lot but so does attitude.

My experience with dog trainers is limited and obviously we're "training" from a different perspective than with gundogs. We found puppy socialisation classes a waste of time; we tried with three of them, but it just wasn't helpful.

As regards the 1-1 training with Brie, although I have joked about Staffy man, he was by far the better trainer because he had a lot of experience. Yes, mainly focused on Bull breeds, but he still knew his stuff. He was also nicer with Brie, very warm with her, so while I don't think he was the ideal trainer for us, I think his heart is in the right place. He is a real dog person, he volunteers at a local rescue kennel, so he knows his dogs. He was the real deal and I don't doubt that he can safely handle reactive dogs.

LGD woman I found very over confident. Her LGD experience turned out to be 5 years with a rescued crossbreed, so her knowledge is not extensive. From a training perspective it was all very basic. On the way back from our walk, she said "I don't think my training methods are going to suit you". She was very cold with Brie, she didn't touch her at all and declined to walk her on the lead when I offered. I'm not sure whether she felt intimidated by Brie or by me (or by both), but I could say that we both (metaphorically) had our hackles raised by her. My partner was on the walk with us, but at a distance and also noticed that she didn't go near Brie, she seemed out of her depth, as if she wasn't confident around dogs of this size. I almost feel conned by the claims on her website; she specifically mentions having an interest in LGD and large guarding breeds, but the reality didn't seem to reflect this at all.

Maybe I'm being unfair. My cousin did some training with a couple of the top behaviourists as part of her vet med course, she said the top woman, who charges thousands, is oddly cold and aloof, and has "lackeys" that handle the dogs. So maybe this is normal for trainers/behaviourists, perhaps they don't like to be hands on - I suppose with a reactive dog it's understandable...

But I don't know, I still think there's a lot of these people that aren't sufficiently qualified.

CoubousAndTourmalet · 30/07/2025 09:13

So, can I throw this question out there to all of you?
Do your trainers get hands-on with the dog or does it vary?
And do you think it's experience or attitude that counts most with a good trainer?

Because I'm still baffled by Monday.

VanGoSunflowers · 30/07/2025 09:14

@brushingboots sorry, I didn’t explain that very well - she did use ‘dead’ instead of drop to release a dummy that he had retrieved. I probably didn’t read the original post from @YorkshireFelix properly but I was a couple of beers down when I posted that last night 😂

I would love to read some of your articles!! May I ask where I can find them please? And massive congratulations on being a published author! I find that sort of stuff really interesting so I will probably pre-order a copy. I got a bit obsessive researching my family tree a few years ago - my maiden name isn’t all that common so it was quite easy to go pretty far back. Although I have zero links to the aristocracy and come from a long line of farmers apparently 😂

brushingboots · 30/07/2025 09:26

@VanGoSunflowers Of course! So there are loads on my Telegraph author page – ignore the headlines as they’re usually generated for maximum action but usually don’t represent what’s in the piece itself:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/authors/e/ek-eo/eleanor-doughty/

There are some though not many here on my Country Life author page
https://www.countrylife.co.uk/author/eleanor-doughty

And some, though again not many, on my own website
https://www.eleanordoughty.com/journalism/

Not much of the stuff I’ve written about my book so far has come out yet but there are a couple of pieces on it here:
Tatler: https://www.tatler.com/article/heirs-graces-inside-world-of-the-modern-aristocracy
Spears: https://spearswms.com/property/business-minded-aristocrats-defy-their-sleepy-stereotype/

And you might enjoy this piece that I did about gundogs for Spears too! https://spearswms.com/luxury/art-culture/a-chinwag-with-the-man-who-trains-dogs-for-the-worlds-super-rich/

Every pre-order counts and makes a huge difference so I'd be thrilled if you did! It's been an amazing book to write and I can't wait to start the next one.

CoubousAndTourmalet · 30/07/2025 09:26

@LandSharksAnonymous

It must feel wonderful when people come back for another pup and you build up a relationship with them. Clearly they love the dogs they've had from you and your mum - three years is a long time to wait.

brushingboots · 30/07/2025 09:27

@CoubousAndTourmalet My trainer is as hands-on with pupsy as I am (maybe more?) and I wouldn’t expect anything else. But I would say that pupsy behaves perfectly with her. Suddenly she’s the best trained dog in the world when my trainer is handling her. Then we swap over and she’s feral again. So I do think they can respond differently to different people and I’m sure there are plenty of good reasons why, and some dogs will manifest that different in various ways – depending on their character etc. Pupsy wants to please so she hops to it whenever anyone that looks vaguely like they know what they're doing takes charge.

VanGoSunflowers · 30/07/2025 09:30

@CoubousAndTourmalet personally, I think that if a good trainer is supposed to be training you to train your dog then you should at least be able to gel with them. I don’t learn well from people who patronise me, for example (as you know 😂)
I think at the end of the day, you’re paying for a service there and you felt that you didn’t receive the service you wanted or needed from her. I think they need to have both experience and a good attitude in order to communicate that experience effectively.

I know I only had one hour with a trainer and she was a gun dog trainer but she was the polar opposite of yours. She was very warm and friendly with both of us, she did a mix of handling him herself to show me what to do and then asking me to do it. She was very laid back about general ‘puppy’ behaviour and she was very encouraging and enthusiastic. She gave Pablo loads of praise and fuss. I might not know much about dogs or training them but I got a really good vibe from this woman and not so much the man that I originally spoke to (which is why I cancelled him!) I guess on the topic of experience, it’s a little different with mine as what I needed to get out of the session was different to what you needed. So she was just showing me very basic stuff because I am a layman 😂 it sounds like what you needed was more niche?

If your trainer was clearly out of her depth with Brie, then she shouldn’t have accepted your money in the first place. And all the stuff on her website is clearly absolute bollocks.

LandSharksAnonymous · 30/07/2025 09:53

@VanGoSunflowers Yep! Next Sunday morning, I'll be saying goodbye to them all in thirty minute slots from 07:30 onwards - some people are very keen 😃So glad he is okay and back to himself. Now to send us even more photos of him!

@CoubousAndTourmalet Oh it is lovely! She was more than happy to wait as she owns one of Pen's littermates, so wanted a bigger gap anyway. She used to own one of Hen's littermates as well.

@brushingboots excuse me whilst I fan-girl in the corner over you! I remember reading your interview with Edward Coke (Holkham Hall) and loving it. I can 100% confirm he does stop people as they're walking around (and was, of course, mobbed by my rabble when he stopped me once). It was so nice to read an article that painted him in a positive light given how much he has done for that part of Norfolk (honestly the way he has transformed Holkham Beach and the effort that has gone into maintaining it and protecting the birds is remarkable). You've made my morning 😃

Nella68 · 30/07/2025 09:58

@CoubousAndTourmalet the original trainer we had was excellent. He had such a natural affinity with dogs and M really responded to him. He was very hands on and would demonstrate stuff and then would guide me through it. This was during 1-1 sessions. The group classes have been different and have been non hands on. The 1-1 sessions cost about £65 for 1.5 hours which sounds very good value compared with your 1-1 sessions!

tizwozliz · 30/07/2025 10:04

Similar experience to @brushingboots here.

Although my older pup misbehaved just as much for them as for me (which is actually quite pleasing 😂)

Had a bit of oddness when I had a one to one where she tried to play some sort of impulse game covering food on the floor with a hand but in a way that looked very similar to the hand signal we used for down so pup was laying down which apparently wasn't what she wanted.

Also, the main reason we were there was about her not returning things so she decided to see if she'd return them to someone else, so she picked up the lead, dog came back, she declared me the problem, until I pointed out that it was because she had picked up the lead and she conceded I was right.

She was also oddly fixated on whether my dog would wee on command...

CoubousAndTourmalet · 30/07/2025 10:14

Thanks @brushingboots @VanGoSunflowers @Nella68 @tizwozliz

It sounds as if your experiences have been good on the whole, with a trainer who does gel with your pups.

BB, your trainer is clearly able to get a lot out of pupsy, but obviously pup is more relaxed around you so she will naturally play up more. You get her true self, they don't. Which I think was my problem on Monday - Brie was so weirdly subdued and calm. If she'd been boisterous and playing up, like she does normally, the story might have been different. Clearly for you Tizwoz, it was - your pup was her authentic self. Although the 1-1 does sound as if the trainer was confusing the dog! Isn't wee on command more at basic puppy class level?

On Monday there were two horses being ridden on the meadow and it surprised LGD woman that Brie hardly turned a hair - she admitted that her own American Bulldog would have gone crazy, barking and wanting to chase. So I think maybe there was an element of it seeming like we had a very well controlled dog and didn't really need help. But then yesterday I was on the same field with a jumping, lead biting Brie, then we encountered a massive truck on our way home, so it was altogether a harder walk. I got authentic Brie but trainer didn't.

But it does sound as if it's pot luck as to what you get with trainers and I think, VanGo, you were very wise to trust your instincts (and okay, the thoughts of us lot on here) and not go with the "Spaniel Man" chap. That's another lesson for me; I should have trusted my own instincts and cancelled.

Nella, you did get good value. You're absolutely right - I honestly expected a lot more from the £165 session; like perhaps a little more enthusiasm at least. It was quite cold, impersonal and businesslike, which wasn't what I expected.

CoubousAndTourmalet · 30/07/2025 10:21

Sunday @LandSharksAnonymous , oh my gosh 😭
I'd be no good. I'd change my mind last minute, hide the pups and say they'd run away 😉

I suppose knowing that one is staying makes a big difference though, otherwise it must be a massive void. I imagine it's going to be lovely to catch up on sleep, and to give your poor overworked hands a chance to recover from being in water 500 times a day 😬

I hope all goes well and pups settle easily in their new homes.

brushingboots · 30/07/2025 10:26

Ahhh thank you @LandSharksAnonymous, that is so nice to hear! Holkham is an extraordinary place and he is such a brilliant example of how to do his job in this day and age. He's very funny in quite a specific, dry way which makes for fantastically combative conversations – I'm a fan.

SpanielsGalore · 30/07/2025 10:31

@CoubousAndTourmalet I am intrigued to know who the expert is training the vets. I wouldn't mind someone cold and aloof with people, but I would want them to be interested in the dogs. I am also curious as to who you saw. Does her name begin with C?

Unfortunately the dog training world is totally unregulated and anyone can set themselves up as one. Two new ones popped up near me a few years ago - they did on line courses during covid. I wouldn't touch either of them with barge pole.

Here's my history of dog trainers.

Took my first puppies to the local dog training school. It was a bit mixed. They taught the 'need to be alpha dog' crap, but also used treats for training and no punishments. As a first time dog owner, I found it useful.

One of my dogs became reactive and I found a behaviourist called Marie Miller. She was brilliant. Taught me all about dog body language and behaviour. I think she was on of the first people in this country to use TTouch. She was hands on with my dogs and would demonstrate training methods with them. I had 1-to-1s and group training sessions with her.

Two of my friends then set up Dog Communication in Surrey, so we used to go there. That was a different set up, as they use teaching dogs to teach other dogs how to interact with each other. They're excellent at understanding and explaining dog behaviour. A lot of the dogs they see are reactive, so they aren't always hands on. But if the dogs are people friendly, then they are. They are very much dog people.

Since moving to Scotland, I have been to two trainers.

One is force free and uses treats. He is very hands on, chatty and down to earth. He knows bits about dog behaviour, but I am not convinced by everything he says. We went for 1-to-1 general obedience, agility and hoopers, which we enjoyed.
However, his puppy training group class was shit. We did about ten minutes of training and 50 minutes of socialising. Not what I paid for! I also went to a group socialisation session he put on once. All dogs had been to training with him and were deemed suitable. Unfortunately there were two incidents where P was duffed up by young males. No biting, but she was pinned to the floor as they had a go at her and had to be dragged off. He partly blamed P for being too submissive and said she needed to stand up for herself. I told him to fuck off and stop victim blaming. I ran this incident past my behaviourist friend and she said some submissive dogs do get duffed up, but only by bullies and it wasn't P's fault. To add, P has never had any problem with any dog we have met in public. She really has excellent manners and communication skills.

The other trainer was a gundog person. He used some aversive training methods, as lots of gundog trainers do. But he was happy for me to ignore those parts and do it my way instead. Things like, he uses slip leads and I stuck with a harness. He would push a dog into a sit position, whereas I would reward one with a treat.
He wasn't so much hands on - although that may have been just my dogs. He did handle the others in the group. But if he'd have done a 'pop' on P's lead as roughly as he did to a GWP, I'd have punched him in the face. He was friendly towards P though and would fuss her when she went to him.

There are three trainers locally who I wouldn't go to. They all use slip leads, e collars and spray bottles. And one has been seen to knee a dog on a couple of occasions.

I think I'd go for attitude as being more important than experience. We all need to start somewhere. They would need to genuinely like dogs, even if they're not keen on people.
For a behaviourist, I'd look for relevant qualifications. And they'd need to be registered with either APDT, ABTC or PACT.

God that was long. Well done if you got to the end of it. 😂

tizwozliz · 30/07/2025 11:24

@CoubousAndTourmalet - as our first practically arrived toilet trained we never got as far as having a command. Dog was 18 months old at this point, been on a ferry, stayed in a hotel, driven 8 hours in the car with stops etc. and had never had an accident in the house beyond the first 3 days. So it's never caused any issues that she won't try and wee if I ask. It just was totally irrelevant.

For various reasons, we've used 5 trainers in total. Only one of them I wouldn't go back to (the others we swapped around a bit due to convenience/distance/activity) and even those classes weren't a total waste of time. Certainly not as bad as some of the things I mentioned here and it was our introduction to JR pate if nothing else! I also think that was the only one where they didn't have any sort of accreditation (others had IMDT and/or PACT) qualifications

CoubousAndTourmalet · 30/07/2025 11:24

@SpanielsGalore

Thank you, that was fascinating.
It sounds as if you've made fairly good choices overall.
I laughed at the "punched in the face" comment though - you sound as formidable as me 😉
Marie Miller sounds good, as does Dog Communication.
The others, mixed, but I suppose you're right that it's good to keep an open mind on the aversive guys and make your own choice for your own dog.

The submissive comment is interesting to me, Brie is very submissive which is part of my worry around dominant dogs. I do feel that having a second, more confident dog would help Brie, but the trainer this week was very adamant that would be a bad thing and Brie would teach pup to be fearful. That doesn't tie in with our past experiences at all, but clearly I need to go deeper into it.

Yes, the one I saw indeed begins with C and claims to be qualified, but then says self taught so I'm guessing online courses. The vet training one my cousin worked with as a student begins with S.

SpanielsGalore · 30/07/2025 12:22

@CoubousAndTourmalet Is it SF? If so, I've not met her, but lots of my dog friends have. She's supposed to be very good and knowledgeable about dog behaviour.
If it's the correct C, I looked at her website yesterday and couldn't find any information about her qualifications or training methods.

P is submissive or appeasing in her approach to other dogs. She will sit at a distance, glance sideways, creep forward on her stomach, lie on her back to show she is non threatening. If a dog displays signs of not wanting to be approached, she will stay away. If a dog is nervous, she will sit with her back to it and let it sniff her whilst never looking at it or sniffing back. And all the in-between dogs, they greet and sniff each other and go on their way.

She is fearful of some things - long car journeys, the dustbin men, me eating. (That's the issue I want help with, but can't afford to spend £500 on someone who turns up and has no idea how to help.) However, she hasn't passed any of those fears on to K. so I don't think that bit is true.
I did have a dog who was fear reactive and his brother learnt to pitch in and help out. But I don't think that's the same thing.

Meant to say about behaviourists - a good one should ask for a vet referral to rule out any pain issues before agreeing to see you.

TV dog trainers - I'd take The Dog Academy and It's Me Or The Dog over The Dogfather and CM.

YorkshireFelix · 30/07/2025 12:32

@LandSharksAnonymous that is lovely re the person who has been waiting so long and it’s a repeat customer! I bet you are thrilled to have people like that wanting your pups. I can’t believe it’s been almost 8 weeks already. That has gone super fast!!

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