Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

The doghouse

If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

Dog breeders advice for starting as a breeder.

227 replies

fluffbreeder · 22/03/2025 19:59

I have a question as I’ve been thinking longer term about being a breeder, I’m 50 now and would something I would look to start in 5-8 years, I already own 3 dogs of the breed I love and I’ve had dogs for over 25+ years. We have acres and the space and funds for me to do this and my DH is onboard.

How does anyone start as the KC pups are all breed restricted? I’d love to hear from breeders, did you plan to become one?

this would be my only role as I’m aiming to retire so I’d like to do my research now.

How did you get your first puppy you could breed from and how frequently do you have litters?

Also I do hear there are enough dogs, and it’s an irresponsible thing to do, is that generally the thought of breeders as well? Is this something to just keep a pipe dream?

My plan would be to get the next pup, female and not restricted in the next 2 years, but would a KC breeder sell to me?

many thanks in advance for any advice, good and bad!

OP posts:
DrPrunesqualer · 19/04/2025 04:20

SquashedSquid · 22/03/2025 23:42

Nope, not at all. I know the breed, so was wondering who the breeder was.

I couldn't care less about breeder hate. Reputable breeders are not the problem and dog people should know this. You won't ever find the dogs of a reputable breeder in rescue. Perhaps they should aim their hate at non-reputable breeders which is why rescues exist.

Most people who don’t like dog breeders just dog like dog breeders full stop.
There are very bad ones
Then there are good ones ( in terms of animal care )

They all breed dogs in a world that can’t cope with the numbers .
People who care for all animal suffering recognise the difference between giving an animal a loving home and picking and choosing an animal to match the furniture ( yes my vets seen this ) or because of they are some special idealised breed.

All breeders are a problem. The only difference is that some are more of a problem than others

EdithStourton · 19/04/2025 09:09

DrPrunesqualer · 19/04/2025 04:06

I don’t see what the problem is with not having a pedigree.
If you love animals and you’d like to add a dog to the family what does it matter.

If you’re choosing to adopt a child do you specifically only specify a type, blond, short nose etc. No. Because that’s wrong. You chose a personality

Apart from that for the dogs sake you make sure you can deal with size and energy levels.
A lactating dog on the streets is deserving of a home and love and care just as much as any, if not more given the hardship they may very well have endured.

I find your comments about ‘random bred dogs’ as you call them upsetting and distasteful

This is going to be a long response.

To deal with your points one by one...
I don’t see what the problem is with not having a pedigree.
I'm by no means obsessive about keeping dog breeds 'pure' (I think for several breeds, outcrossing is becoming an urgent requirement). For many, perhaps most, dog owners, it makes no odds if their dog is pedigree or not, provided the dog has the traits they need for the dog to fit their lifestyle (personality not overly energetic, not prone to resource guarding or guarding behaviours in general, not having sky-high prey drive, being moderately trainable; physically not too big/small, grooming requirements within what they can provide, no major health issues or allergies etc). But one of the best ways of knowing what sort of dogs your puppy is likely to turn into is know its breeding. Its breed, the lines within that breed, the parents' temperaments and attributes. If you have no idea what the parents were like, if they were of no obvious breed (or from breed with which you are not familiar), you have no idea if a behaviour that you see in a young dog is a one-off or an indication that an ingrained, genetically-driven circuit is switching on. A friend of mine rescued a young dog of indeterminate breed from Europe. He turned out to be much, much bigger than she expected, to have far higher prey drive than she was anticipating and to need more mental stimulation to keep him happy than she had planned to offer. Fortunately she has had the time and headspace to provide everything he has needed - but he could easily have gone very badly wrong in another home.

Obviously breed does not set personality in stone, but there is a bell curve. I have two dogs of the same breed with very different personalities, but they both have very high prey-drive, work the wind in very much the same way, and have the breed trait of being good around people and other dogs.

Finally, some people know exactly what sort of dog fits with their lifestyle - or they want or need a dog that they can work. This is where breed is very, very useful. I know precisely what I want to do with my dogs. I know how much fur DH will tolerate around the house. I know how much exercise and mental stimulation we can provide. I know how well I can train a dog. We have a high-energy, high-drive, prey-driven breed, because that works for us. My older dog would be a shit-head in many homes, because if she doesn't get a breed-appropriate outlet, that is what she slowly turns into. With us, she is happy, confident, reliable and trustworthy.

There is a reason why Guide Dogs breed the puppies they need. They don't obsess over purity of pedigree (they use a lot of Lab x GR) but for sure they obsess over the pedigree itself, the health and lifespan and temperament and traits of the dogs whose genes are going into that breeding.

If you love animals and you’d like to add a dog to the family what does it matter.
See above: dogs are different from each other and your circumstances may well dictate what sort of dog will work for you. We see a steady parade of out of control spaniels across this board: not everyone is equipped to deal with the extremes of cocker spaniel traits. And that is with people buying puppies with fairly predictable traits. When somebody living in the suburbs gets a European rescue with loads of energy and strong guarding tendencies (because its 3/4 Carpathian shepherd but came up a bit small and less fluffy due to the other 1/4 of its genetics) things can go very badly wrong.

If you’re choosing to adopt a child do you specifically only specify a type, blond, short nose etc. No. Because that’s wrong. You chose a personality
Actually, when you adopt a child, you don't choose. You get matched.
But aside from that, unlike dogs, humans have not been bred for literally millennia to fix traits. There have been distinct types of dog for at least 3,000 years. Yes, most breeds only became fixed within the last 150 years, but a lot of those breeds developed out of lines of dogs bred for specific looks and, crucially, specific jobs. Again, this is why things go wrong with some working cockers in pet homes: these are dogs bred for generations to hunt and flush, and they need an outlet that plays to those genetic drives.

Apart from that for the dogs sake you make sure you can deal with size and energy levels.
100% agree. But if you get a mongrel (as a descriptor, not an insult) puppy, you might have very little idea of its ultimate size and energy levels. If it was born on the streets, you'll have even less of an idea because you might not even be able to see the mother.

You also need to consider drive: what the dog desperately wants to do. Some dogs need a specific outlet.

A lactating dog on the streets is deserving of a home and love and care just as much as any, if not more given the hardship they may very well have endured.
And did I say that they weren't? The point I was making was that if people don't breed dogs, the only dogs that will be born will be the ones born to feral or straying bitches. And personally, because I love dogs, I'd rather that dogs weren't feral, though I think that a lot of owned dogs who wander the streets (i.e. stray) elsewhere in the world often have very good lives - provided that their reproduction is controlled and the females aren't producing litter after litter.

I find your comments about ‘random bred dogs’ as you call them upsetting and distasteful
What else would you like me to call them? It's a statement of fact, not a criticism of the dogs themselves (who wouldn't understand it anyway). We had an ex-street dog when I was a kid, a delightful, affectionate, happy chappie of no discernible breed. We were lucky that he was so trustworthy and easy.

Finally, I suppose you could argue that we shouldn't have breeds at all and should only have the generic dogs that you see on the streets of Africa and India. That would throw away years of careful selective breeding for specific traits to fit specific lives, and deprive the military, police, Guide Dogs etc of the genetics that they need.

Personally I think having breeds makes the world better for both people and the dogs - because more dogs end up in the correct sort of home than might otherwise be the case. I am very concerned, though, that closed stud books will eventually knacker up breeds as inbreeding levels inevitably rise, so for that reason I'm 100% in favour of outcrossing in a sensible way.

Leonberger · 19/04/2025 12:48

DrPrunesqualer · 19/04/2025 04:20

Most people who don’t like dog breeders just dog like dog breeders full stop.
There are very bad ones
Then there are good ones ( in terms of animal care )

They all breed dogs in a world that can’t cope with the numbers .
People who care for all animal suffering recognise the difference between giving an animal a loving home and picking and choosing an animal to match the furniture ( yes my vets seen this ) or because of they are some special idealised breed.

All breeders are a problem. The only difference is that some are more of a problem than others

Well that’s debatable isn’t it.
Lots of good breeders, particularly those of rare breeds have waiting lists years long. That would suggest there is a market for it. I know in my own breed there are pretty much 0 in rescue.

People should be fussy! People should be choosing a dog based on what they like, what suits them, what they can cope with (yes even if it’s what matches their aesthetic because it’s making them less likely to get rid of it)

So if everyone bred ethically and minimally in the same way as some of the rare breeds then the problem would stop. Stop churning out poodle crosses filled with anxiety and make people think about what breed would suit them and let them jump through the ethical breeder hoops to get one.

Personally as someone who has worked with rescues for years often doing the job nobody else wants to, I believe people should choose a dog that fits their lifestyle and make sure the breed traits they are selecting match the home and experience level of the potential owner. Giving everyone a random collie cross or dog aggressive staffy from a shelter is not the answer.

DrPrunesqualer · 19/04/2025 12:52

EdithStourton · 19/04/2025 09:09

This is going to be a long response.

To deal with your points one by one...
I don’t see what the problem is with not having a pedigree.
I'm by no means obsessive about keeping dog breeds 'pure' (I think for several breeds, outcrossing is becoming an urgent requirement). For many, perhaps most, dog owners, it makes no odds if their dog is pedigree or not, provided the dog has the traits they need for the dog to fit their lifestyle (personality not overly energetic, not prone to resource guarding or guarding behaviours in general, not having sky-high prey drive, being moderately trainable; physically not too big/small, grooming requirements within what they can provide, no major health issues or allergies etc). But one of the best ways of knowing what sort of dogs your puppy is likely to turn into is know its breeding. Its breed, the lines within that breed, the parents' temperaments and attributes. If you have no idea what the parents were like, if they were of no obvious breed (or from breed with which you are not familiar), you have no idea if a behaviour that you see in a young dog is a one-off or an indication that an ingrained, genetically-driven circuit is switching on. A friend of mine rescued a young dog of indeterminate breed from Europe. He turned out to be much, much bigger than she expected, to have far higher prey drive than she was anticipating and to need more mental stimulation to keep him happy than she had planned to offer. Fortunately she has had the time and headspace to provide everything he has needed - but he could easily have gone very badly wrong in another home.

Obviously breed does not set personality in stone, but there is a bell curve. I have two dogs of the same breed with very different personalities, but they both have very high prey-drive, work the wind in very much the same way, and have the breed trait of being good around people and other dogs.

Finally, some people know exactly what sort of dog fits with their lifestyle - or they want or need a dog that they can work. This is where breed is very, very useful. I know precisely what I want to do with my dogs. I know how much fur DH will tolerate around the house. I know how much exercise and mental stimulation we can provide. I know how well I can train a dog. We have a high-energy, high-drive, prey-driven breed, because that works for us. My older dog would be a shit-head in many homes, because if she doesn't get a breed-appropriate outlet, that is what she slowly turns into. With us, she is happy, confident, reliable and trustworthy.

There is a reason why Guide Dogs breed the puppies they need. They don't obsess over purity of pedigree (they use a lot of Lab x GR) but for sure they obsess over the pedigree itself, the health and lifespan and temperament and traits of the dogs whose genes are going into that breeding.

If you love animals and you’d like to add a dog to the family what does it matter.
See above: dogs are different from each other and your circumstances may well dictate what sort of dog will work for you. We see a steady parade of out of control spaniels across this board: not everyone is equipped to deal with the extremes of cocker spaniel traits. And that is with people buying puppies with fairly predictable traits. When somebody living in the suburbs gets a European rescue with loads of energy and strong guarding tendencies (because its 3/4 Carpathian shepherd but came up a bit small and less fluffy due to the other 1/4 of its genetics) things can go very badly wrong.

If you’re choosing to adopt a child do you specifically only specify a type, blond, short nose etc. No. Because that’s wrong. You chose a personality
Actually, when you adopt a child, you don't choose. You get matched.
But aside from that, unlike dogs, humans have not been bred for literally millennia to fix traits. There have been distinct types of dog for at least 3,000 years. Yes, most breeds only became fixed within the last 150 years, but a lot of those breeds developed out of lines of dogs bred for specific looks and, crucially, specific jobs. Again, this is why things go wrong with some working cockers in pet homes: these are dogs bred for generations to hunt and flush, and they need an outlet that plays to those genetic drives.

Apart from that for the dogs sake you make sure you can deal with size and energy levels.
100% agree. But if you get a mongrel (as a descriptor, not an insult) puppy, you might have very little idea of its ultimate size and energy levels. If it was born on the streets, you'll have even less of an idea because you might not even be able to see the mother.

You also need to consider drive: what the dog desperately wants to do. Some dogs need a specific outlet.

A lactating dog on the streets is deserving of a home and love and care just as much as any, if not more given the hardship they may very well have endured.
And did I say that they weren't? The point I was making was that if people don't breed dogs, the only dogs that will be born will be the ones born to feral or straying bitches. And personally, because I love dogs, I'd rather that dogs weren't feral, though I think that a lot of owned dogs who wander the streets (i.e. stray) elsewhere in the world often have very good lives - provided that their reproduction is controlled and the females aren't producing litter after litter.

I find your comments about ‘random bred dogs’ as you call them upsetting and distasteful
What else would you like me to call them? It's a statement of fact, not a criticism of the dogs themselves (who wouldn't understand it anyway). We had an ex-street dog when I was a kid, a delightful, affectionate, happy chappie of no discernible breed. We were lucky that he was so trustworthy and easy.

Finally, I suppose you could argue that we shouldn't have breeds at all and should only have the generic dogs that you see on the streets of Africa and India. That would throw away years of careful selective breeding for specific traits to fit specific lives, and deprive the military, police, Guide Dogs etc of the genetics that they need.

Personally I think having breeds makes the world better for both people and the dogs - because more dogs end up in the correct sort of home than might otherwise be the case. I am very concerned, though, that closed stud books will eventually knacker up breeds as inbreeding levels inevitably rise, so for that reason I'm 100% in favour of outcrossing in a sensible way.

I do appreciate this long explanation and the effort you have put in to explain fully on your part.
So Thankyou.

None of it changes the fact we have lots of dogs, and other animals, that need homes.
They should come first to reduce the suffering. There’s absolutely no need to be producing more. there’s absolutely no need to be producing more a
of a certain design just makes because people like the look of that one. ( or whatever excuse people have )
Dogs aren’t a fashion accessory.

DrPrunesqualer · 19/04/2025 12:59

Leonberger · 19/04/2025 12:48

Well that’s debatable isn’t it.
Lots of good breeders, particularly those of rare breeds have waiting lists years long. That would suggest there is a market for it. I know in my own breed there are pretty much 0 in rescue.

People should be fussy! People should be choosing a dog based on what they like, what suits them, what they can cope with (yes even if it’s what matches their aesthetic because it’s making them less likely to get rid of it)

So if everyone bred ethically and minimally in the same way as some of the rare breeds then the problem would stop. Stop churning out poodle crosses filled with anxiety and make people think about what breed would suit them and let them jump through the ethical breeder hoops to get one.

Personally as someone who has worked with rescues for years often doing the job nobody else wants to, I believe people should choose a dog that fits their lifestyle and make sure the breed traits they are selecting match the home and experience level of the potential owner. Giving everyone a random collie cross or dog aggressive staffy from a shelter is not the answer.

Having waiting lists for certain dogs means nothing in terms of whether it’s right to breed dogs or not. Animals aren’t pieces of furniture or a Morgan car. It’s irrelevant whether people want them and only ever relevant whether it’s right for animals overall to be bred. I know this is contentious, supply and demand and all that but somethings shouldn’t be part of that business model.

I agree animals should be suited to a family and environment. That’s why rescue centres ( or at least the known ones we’ve used ) match an animal to a family. Check the home environment etc before accepting an adoption application.

Theres no reason why people can’t go to rescue centres to adopt a suitable animal. There’s no reason this is only ever available from breeders. You may have to wait a long time, as we did, for one from a rescue centre that is suitable to your family but this is a living being worth waiting for. Whatever they look like!

LandSharksAnonymous · 19/04/2025 13:08

I agree animals should be suited to a family and environment. That’s why rescue centres ( or at least the known ones we’ve used ) match an animal to a family. Check the home environment etc before accepting an adoption application.

Ah yes, that must be why one of the Big 5 rehomed a dog with a known bite history to a woman and it attacked her. Or why the RSPCA let another dog with a known history of behavioural issues be fostered - and then it attacked the fosterer so badly that the woman had to have her arm amputated. Or why my neighbour - who again rehomed through one of the big five, and was assured of the dogs 'loving personality' - had to PTS her rescue after it attacked her and her children.

Let's not pretend that all rescues are amazing, glorious places. Likewise let's not pretend all breeders are amazing. You are just as likely to find a dodgy rescue as you are a dodgy breeder - to pretend otherwise is woefully naive at best or downright disingenuous at worst.

ArticWillow · 19/04/2025 13:19

Theres no reason why people can’t go to rescue centres to adopt a suitable animal. There’s no reason this is only ever available from breeders .

I disagree. I had no choice but to go to a breeder for a puppy when DC were under 6.
Rescues said no thank you to us. Despite me being at home, having had 2 difficult rescue dogs previously (one lived happily through the baby & toddler stage with DC1) and looking for a dog suitable for K9 sports (= high energy!).
I had 2 options either buy a dog off someone who couldn't cope or get a puppy. Option one wasn't working as people were lying- I did look at a few dogs but they were not suitable either due to aggression or being nervous around children at first meeting. Without a proper assessment I couldn't risk it. I needed to know what I was dealing with.

So I got myself a lovely breed puppy instead. I did a lot of research and found a breed that was suitable for us as a family. Honestly, anyone who knows about dogs and has experienced both puppy & troubled rescue dog, will know that a well bred puppy raised in a family with plenty of training is soo much easier in every way. Still hard work, but no issues created by previous owners or spending to much time in kennels.

SquashedSquid · 19/04/2025 13:19

Nope. I don't want someone's backyard bred, unhealth-tested, poorly trained mutt. Been there, done that.

I'll stick with my well bred dogs of sound temperament, from health and DNA tested sire and dam, with working reputation, endorsements and a return to breeder contract, should anything ever happen to me.

Again, ethical breeders are NOT the problem. People have the right to choose a breed for purpose, so long as they get their dog from someone reputable. Stop trying to make people feel guilty for having specific needs.

DrPrunesqualer · 19/04/2025 13:29

Guilt is very much a personal feeling !

If people are truly in the right there’s very little others can do to change that. They will have everything already on their side, so no point either.

Leonberger · 19/04/2025 13:46

DrPrunesqualer · 19/04/2025 12:59

Having waiting lists for certain dogs means nothing in terms of whether it’s right to breed dogs or not. Animals aren’t pieces of furniture or a Morgan car. It’s irrelevant whether people want them and only ever relevant whether it’s right for animals overall to be bred. I know this is contentious, supply and demand and all that but somethings shouldn’t be part of that business model.

I agree animals should be suited to a family and environment. That’s why rescue centres ( or at least the known ones we’ve used ) match an animal to a family. Check the home environment etc before accepting an adoption application.

Theres no reason why people can’t go to rescue centres to adopt a suitable animal. There’s no reason this is only ever available from breeders. You may have to wait a long time, as we did, for one from a rescue centre that is suitable to your family but this is a living being worth waiting for. Whatever they look like!

But the point is there wouldn’t be any in rescue if everyone went to an ethical breeder and choose a dog that fit their lifestyle to the extent they wouldn’t want to part with it.

In my experience the reason most dogs are in rescue are because people are choosing a dog that they can’t manage. Badly bred dogs, health issues (not health testing or ‘designer’ dogs the main culprits, bad temperaments, not researching the needs of the dog and ending up not able to be provided what it needs, behavioural issues, not being experienced enough for the dog they have chosen.

Stop them buying a backstreet bred dog without having to go through the proper channels and rescue comes almost obsolete. Especially as most ethical breeders take their dogs back at any stage of life so they don’t require a rescue centre. It would literally eliminate the problem.

Chicken and the egg 🤷‍♀️

Ive had many a rescue dog, fostered hundreds. Almost every one has had some sort of issue. I wouldn’t be happy putting a rescue in a novice home or with children no matter anyone else’s views on it.

EdithStourton · 19/04/2025 14:29

DrPrunesqualer · 19/04/2025 12:52

I do appreciate this long explanation and the effort you have put in to explain fully on your part.
So Thankyou.

None of it changes the fact we have lots of dogs, and other animals, that need homes.
They should come first to reduce the suffering. There’s absolutely no need to be producing more. there’s absolutely no need to be producing more a
of a certain design just makes because people like the look of that one. ( or whatever excuse people have )
Dogs aren’t a fashion accessory.

Thank you for your observation.

And yes, we do have a lot of animals in rescue. Some of them need very specialised homes. I'm an experienced dog owner (40 years approx of living with and/or owning dogs), and I wouldn't want a resource guarding spaniel, because I wouldn't trust myself to be able to keep visiting children safe. Some of the dogs in rescue should not be in any home, because they are too dangerous, or too behaviourally screwed up. Some could be rehabbing, but as PP have noted, thr big rescues do not have the best of records for properly assessing and rehabbing dogs.

And the other issue is that even if EVERY dog in rescue in the UK was found a home, there would still be homes, every year, for 100s of 1,000s of puppies.

And IMHO the answer to dog over-population elsewhere in the world isn't to constantly channel those dogs into homes in places like Britain but reduce the number of puppies born in those countries. If we decide we're going to cure the problem of dog over-population in, say, Romania, by shipping all the extra dogs here we have the following issues:
A lot of dogs will end up in entirely unsuitable homes, with consequent stress and misery all round, and possibly eventual euthanasia;
Somebody will see a get-rich-quick business opportunity and we'll never solve the problem;
If we don't breed dogs here for however long it takes to clear the streets and villages and forests of Romania (5 years? 10?) we will lose a mass of genetic material in the form of many carefully and thoughtfully bred dogs of known ancestry never being bred.

Now, if you think we shouldn't have domestic dogs at all, shouldn't have them as pets, shouldn't work them, shouldn't have guide dogs, that won't matter to you.

But it sure as fuck matters massively to me.

EdithStourton · 19/04/2025 14:41

DrPrunesqualer · 19/04/2025 13:29

Guilt is very much a personal feeling !

If people are truly in the right there’s very little others can do to change that. They will have everything already on their side, so no point either.

Edited

I don't feel remotely guilty for carefully selecting the sort of puppy that will work for us as a family and to whom we can give a good life, and who has been thoughtfully bred, nor for piling in the time and money for training to give that dog fullest life I can.

I just think that it's very easy to come up with simple solutions to the complex issues of canine over-population without considering the issues that might arise.

I've brought up a family of now-adult DC who love dogs. I want to be able to have a dog until I drop. I want my DC to have the same choice open to them. I don't want to see future choices closed off by ill-thought-out ideas and campaigns now. And this whole 'Just get a rescue! All breeders are Satan!' ideology would be dangerous to dog ownership if it gained traction. It plays exactly into the hands of organisations like PETA who are quite clear that they ultimately want no human to be looking after any animal, whether as a pet or for food or for sport or for work.

Which is why I post on threads like this.

ArticWillow · 19/04/2025 15:44

No guilt. I chose the right puppy/ breed for my family. We had 12 amazing, happy years together. I could take the puppy dog everywhere with me no issues.

My rescues were with me 4-8 years some of that time was spent gaining their trust and giving them reassurance in every day situations. I had to choose where to go carefully. Some things were not possible at all.

Notaflippinclue · 19/04/2025 15:52

If the government would just ban the import of so called street dogs then the Eastern Europeans would stop breeding them for profit and their Governments would sort out their own mess

ChristmaslightsuptilJanuary · 19/04/2025 16:03

I'm always sceptical of dog breeders who claim they are not in it for the money.

SquashedSquid · 19/04/2025 16:03

@Leonberger Exactly this. If everyone went to a reputable breeder for their dog, there's be no dogs in rescue. None.

The only issue here is people buying dogs from disreputable breeders. Because they want a puppy NOW, because they're too thick to research, because they are stupid enough to pay thousands for a mongrel, because they want a dog with no endorsements so they can farm puppies themselves, etc. People using these breeders are to blame. Not reputable breeders.

SquashedSquid · 19/04/2025 16:04

ChristmaslightsuptilJanuary · 19/04/2025 16:03

I'm always sceptical of dog breeders who claim they are not in it for the money.

Why? No reputable breeders are, "In it for the money". Many make huge losses on litters, especially if there are problems. They're working to better their breed, not make money.

ChristmaslightsuptilJanuary · 19/04/2025 16:08

My experience is that that's simply not true. I've bought pedigree dogs from reputable breeders. I've chosen my dogs (and where they came from) for reasons that were right for my family. But to say the breeder wasn't motivated by making money from their 2k a crack puppies is laughable.

Arniesaxe · 19/04/2025 16:27

I think the OP is on the wind-up. Or maybe that's my own wishful thinking.

The number of unwanted dogs is the reason I gave up most of my weekends in my 20s and 30s volunteering, transporting, rehoming and rescuing.

And the reason my lovely but anxious huge girl came to me at 6 days old when the breeder didn't have a clue what to do and had essentially left her for dead.

If she ISN'T on the wind-up, she's going to do it anyway. Same as all the other lot of them do unfortunately.
People prefer to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

SquashedSquid · 19/04/2025 16:41

ChristmaslightsuptilJanuary · 19/04/2025 16:08

My experience is that that's simply not true. I've bought pedigree dogs from reputable breeders. I've chosen my dogs (and where they came from) for reasons that were right for my family. But to say the breeder wasn't motivated by making money from their 2k a crack puppies is laughable.

Doesn't sound lik a reputable breeder to me.

Sunshineofyourlove · 19/04/2025 16:56

I wish people were this passionate about child welfare.

redboxer321 · 19/04/2025 17:02

@EdithStourton hit the nail on the head when she wrote: "...unlike dogs, humans have not been bred for literally millennia to fix traits." That is the very reason human beings keep pet dogs and use working dogs.

We have been selectively breeding dogs so they can work for us but I am not sure we should have done that. I expect most working animals get a mixed life but what is undeniable is that their lives are lived for the benefit of human beings. And in the examples given, they are needed because human beings have failed. If human beings could truly live in peace, we wouldn't need a military or a police force and therefore no military or police dogs. Guide dogs being the exception.

Further, we human beings have bred so much and there are so many of us, we need animals to help us produce food. Or we think we do. I've just seen an ex sheep dog who at 11 years old and with cataracts in both eyes, having spent her life doing as a person commanded has now been surrendered to kennels. She looks utterly bewildered. It won't be every ex sheep dog's experience - some will have it better, others worse.

As for pets, well again they are designed to enrich human beings' lives by way of companionship, a hobby, whatever it might be. Count the number of 'I want...' in this thread, it's illuminating. But while I can see there is an argument for good breeders producing healthy pets and thoroughly vetting any new owners, they still put their bitches through multiple pregnancies and I don't know how fair that is on the animal. And while dog ownership is still a thing, you are never going to clamp down on bad breeders. The type for example who sold a high energy dog to a family in between the mother's death and funeral. They type who will sell a dog to a new graduate, living in rented accommodation and about to start a full time job, who thinks it's a good time to get a dog. These are just two examples that I have heard about in the last couple of weeks. Even if we could get to the point of only good breeders breeding healthy dogs, we would still need rehoming centres. Things can change for both the owner and the breeder.

As for bringing dogs to the UK from overseas, it is obviously not a solution and things can go wrong but most dogs from overseas aren't Carpathian shepherds and many can adapt to life as a pet in the suburbs. It's a risk of course and I am not convinced it is what we should be doing but I have not got any answers to the problem and I don't see anyone else has one that is workable and achievable.

I personally broadly agree with the aims of Peta. And I think it would be better if people asked themselves a question along the lines of that which JFK asked the American people in the 60s. Not what an animal can do for you but what you can do for an animal and long term I think that's, get the hell out of their lives.

LandSharksAnonymous · 19/04/2025 17:03

@ChristmaslightsuptilJanuary

Being completely transparent, I bring home (roughly) £4K a month. I take three months SUPL when I have a litter (two months to look after pups and the month before to prepare). So, that's £12K I need to make to 'break even' - right? Anything more than that is 'profit' in your eyes.

My expenses, for my next litter (due in circa. 5.5 weeks):

  • The cost of sperm
  • DNA testing for the puppies
  • Vet check-ups for the bitch
  • Revised health tests (I test every two years for certain conditions as it can change over time)
  • Fresh bedding
  • Wormer
  • Microchipping
  • KC registration
  • Solid food
  • Toys

That will cost me (roughly) about £4K given increased veterinary expenses as a result of the various tax hikes.

So, now I need £16K to 'break even.'

Of course that doesn't include any other incidentals which will likely total £1-1.5kish including things like scans, supplements, extra food for mum, dog walker for my other dogs etc.

So, now we're on £17-18K I need to break even.

Goldies usually average around 8 pups. I'll keep a pup from this litter as I won't breed my girl again. So that'll be 7 pups I sell.

So, let's say £2.5K x 7 = £17.5K. I'm looking at least at a £500 loss.

That of course does not include the actual cost of raising puppies in terms of time and resource. I'll be lucky to get 3-4hours sleep a night for the first five weeks or so...

But, please tell me about how I am motivated by money.😊

redboxer321 · 19/04/2025 17:14

Sorry @LandSharksAnonymous but you can't factor in your lost salary. You're not doing that job. You're doing another job but not the one that brings in £4k month so you can't count the salary.
That other job - breeding - is bringing in £17k with expenses of £4k.
You're choosing to take unpaid leave from your salaried job and you're choosing to breed which at £13k for 3 months brings in a similar amount to your salaried job. Unless I've got that wrong?

LandSharksAnonymous · 19/04/2025 17:24

redboxer321 · 19/04/2025 17:14

Sorry @LandSharksAnonymous but you can't factor in your lost salary. You're not doing that job. You're doing another job but not the one that brings in £4k month so you can't count the salary.
That other job - breeding - is bringing in £17k with expenses of £4k.
You're choosing to take unpaid leave from your salaried job and you're choosing to breed which at £13k for 3 months brings in a similar amount to your salaried job. Unless I've got that wrong?

You haven't 'got that wrong.' But you have completely missed the point and have drastically over-simplified.

The fact is, I need to earn roughly the same I do from my job in terms of money (even if the hours worked are grossly different), otherwise I couldn't afford to breed. I have expenses - mortgage, children, dogs, council tax, utility bills etc. that I have to afford. Unless you think I shouldn't be thinking about feeding my children or paying my mortgage when I breed? Or that only the incredibly wealthy who could afford to give dogs away should breed?

I am not motivated by money (if I was, i'd charge £3K a puppy and people would gladly pay it), but thinking that any breeder - even the most ethical ones - can breed without considering finances is woefully naive.

Ultimately, breeders like me - who breed when the circumstances are right, and one litter every few years - are not in it for the profit. Trust me, if money was the motivating factor I'd stick to the day job given the certainty of a pay-check I would receive.

Swipe left for the next trending thread